Re: GCSE results by race and sex


Dr A. N. Walker wrote:
> In article <1134086521.931069.66730@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> The Harbinger <DontShootMeImJustTheMessenger@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> [The statistics] are misleading if [normal] people are misled.
> >And normal people are misled if they come to a different conclusion to
> >you i suppose?
>
> The only conclusion I came to was that the breakdown by
> ethnicity was of no significance

But the figures *are* a breakdown of ethnicity.

We all know what your subsequent justifications will be almost without
needing to read them.

Let me give you a quick breakdown of guts of the the oft regurgitated
*case against the suggestion that ethnicity determines intelligence,
success and propensity to crime*.

/////

We are all equal.

If we are all equal, why do some of us in certain groups do better than
others consistently?

As we are all equal, the people that do worse must be either
discriminated against now or have been in the past.

///

Hence the assumption of racism supports the fallacy of equality.

In the meantime, back in the real world. Ethnicity determines
intelligence, success and propensity to crime.

Pretty much every comment you make in this post is an attempted
justification of this.

> in the absence of information
> about the breakdown by [some combination of] social or economic
> status or quality of school. If you think otherwise, perhaps you
> could explain what you think the significance is. People -- the
> large majority even of intelligent adults -- with no statistics
> background are unlikely to be able to judge that for themselves.
>
> >Statistics are facts, however they are interpreted and people can, and
> >will, come to their own conclusions whether you like it or not. If you
> >have a point, make it, but don't try to spoil the thread because these
> >facts conflict with your opinions.
>
> What makes you think the facts conflict with my opinions?
> The point I was making was that the facts do not give us any useful
> information; so they do not conflict with *any* relevant opinion.
>
> >I'm sure Maria is impressed by your concern to protect her from all of
> >these confusing statistics.
> >So you can explain how they are not significant then?
>
> I already did. They are not disaggregated by [eg] social
> status; so they are no more use to us than [eg] breast cancer
> figures that are not split into results for males and females
> [and perhaps into young and old]. If black people really are doing
> worse than [eg] white people, then the conclusions and the political
> consequences are quite different from those appropriate if they are
> in fact doing *better* than white people but that fact has been masked
> by the aggregation. Until we know the breakdown, we don't know which
> of these has happened -- not even at the level of "it seems likely
> that ...".
>
> >But it is not a drug company, he has posted the figures that have been
> >made available and we can all guess why a more complete set of figures
> >is rarely available.
>
> I can guess several possible reasons, and have no idea which
> of them is true. If you are better informed, feel free to let us know.
>
> >You have just contradicted yourself. Now explain how the Chinese
> >outperformed every other racial group despite their obvious relative
> >poverty?
>
> What relative poverty? *All* the ethnic Chinese people I know
> [quite a lot] are solidly middle-class or better; quite different from
> the West Indians I know. It may be different in your neck of the woods.
> It was certainly different in Morecambe; but I doubt whether many of
> the cockle-pickers had children in the UK doing GCSEs.
>
> >What happens when a bad school turns good is that the social makeup of
> >the school changes . The head imposes discipline, caring and supportive
> >parents send their kids to that school and even compete to gain entry
> >and the troublesome kids merely end up somewhere else.
> > It just rearranges the educational deckchairs.
>
> A case highlighted locally was turned around in one year. The
> children had almost all been at the school the previous year, when the
> school was bottom of the table. Clearly, arranging the deckchairs is
> one way to change a school, but far from the only way. Simply creating
> a bit of stability goes a long way.

The instability simply goes to another school. This is why we need to
rely on national statistics to get an idea of whether our children are
getting a better education or not. But no doubt they are flawed too.

> >> [...] I do however know
> >> enough to know when statistics are verging on the "lies, damned lies
> >> and ..." of popular myth.
> >Nonsense, they just offend your liberal sensibilities so you rubbish
> >them. If we ignore statistics we can base our conclusions on what
> >exactly? Subjective experiences maybe? Political rhetoric perhaps?
>
> I don't believe you know anything at all about my "liberal
> sensibilities". Nor have I suggested that we ignore statistics. But
> we *should* -- indeed, *must* -- ignore worthless statistics, and try
> instead to obtain meaningful ones. Political rhetoric, especially
> from the fringes, thrives on meaningless statistics.
>
> > [...] The Chinese and Indians place great stress on education and
> >subsequently outperform the indigenous population by an amazing amount.
>
> We don't know that.

Absolute nonsense and you know it. Ask any of that multitude of Chinese
you know so well that you referred to earlier. Every Indian and Chinese
family I have ever known provides an enviable amount of parental
support.

> From the figures given, it is perfectly
> possible that they are badly underperforming. Or overperforming.
> That is what worthless statistics do for you.

Except as a valuable comparison.

> > [...] As to the relative wealth of immigrants
> >on arrival I suggest that they all started from a similar position of
> >almost total poverty.
>
> Simply not true. *Some* of them of course arrived with nothing.

The vast majority of them arrived with nothing. Your assumption of the
immigration of wealthy Indians and Chinese to attempt to justify their
relative success is pure unmitigated bunk.

> Many others came here from places like Hong Kong, Singapore, India, the
> Middle East as businessmen of great wealth, or as students from wealthy
> families, or as partners of UK citizens of a variety of backgrounds.
>
> >There are few enough forums where issues like this can be discussed. I
> >suggest if you don't like it or you can't make a valid contribution
> >then don't try to browbeat the other posters with your snide comments.
>
> What snide comments? For over 20 years now, I have tried
> always [and only occasionally failed] to write helpful comments to
> the Net, and to do so with politeness and consideration. I am sorry
> if you think otherwise.
>

.

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