Re: Chomsky quote for discussion...


fulco wrote:
> Bill Willis wrote:
..
fulco wrote:
> Bill Willis wrote:
> > fulco wrote:
> >
> >>Bill Willis wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Good stats. I can't be bothered to address the woefully ignorant Willis
> >>>>any more but I note he has carefully avoided the example of post-IMF
> >>>>Argentina in his eulogy on the right of capitalism...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>This reply is really funny. WHy on earth would you expect me to have
> >>>something to say on post-IMF Argentia? Why not expect a comment on The
> >>>Hundred Years War! There are limitless of things I have *not*
> >>>commented on. I haven't the foggiest idea of what you are referring to
> >>>regarding Post IMF Argentina. If you want a comment on something or
> >>>other from me ask me. I will do my best. Why shouldn't I? I am
> >>>honest and open minded unlike yourself and MM I am starting to find
> >>>out.
> >>>
> >>
> >>You wax eloquent on the benefits of capitalism but ignore countries that
> >>have had to experience the blood-sucking Bretton Woods diktat in all its
> >>gruesome greed and inhumane treatment of 'target' populations.
> >
> >
> > I know that capitalism is an imperfect economic system that creates
> > wealth while socialism is a much more imperfect system that mainly
> > consumes wealth. I also know that many nations that pursue capitalism
> > enjoy societal prosperity not just for the capitalists either while in
> > most socialist countries it is only the cadre (mainly government big
> > wigs) that enjoy anything vaguely resembling prosperity.
>
> I think you confuse 'socialism' (which to me means putting the welfare
> of all on equal footing with the welfare of the individual) with
> dictatorship. ISTM that 'socialism' has been given entirely the wrong
> semiotic due to the inescapable fact of human existence by which the
> well-meaning are always being swamped by the terminally cynical. It is
> so easy to twist words, innit?

No. Words mean what they mean. Socialism is government control of
the means of production and distribution. Societies (nations) are
socialist depending on the degree to which they practice the above.
Without exception nations that practice socialism have failed.Nations
that embrace the free market tend to prosper but not always.

I am interested in what you were complaining about regarding Argentina
and the IMF. I know for example that Argentina is a very rich nation
from a national resource standpoint. There is no reason why Argentina
should not be more prosperous than it is except for decades of bad
government. Even now Argentina is far from the bottom rank of nations.

>
> I do not consider myself a socialist for that very reason and prefer to
> term what I feel the best way forward for humanity to be a movement
> towards global justice.

Might that not be a free market tempered by restraints implicit in
Social Democracy?

This means identifying psychopathy *before* it
> grasps power - not an easy task in the present climate but one very
> important to pursue if we are not to descend into all out war caused by
> those very capitalists who seek to rule all, regardless of the chaos and
> suffering they cause.

What do you suggest? You seem to be saying you are in favor of
perfection and against imperfection. Big deal.
>
> The present unsustainable path of the US and to a lesser (at least on
> the surface) extent, the UK, is sucking the lifeblood from the entire
> world by their greed and carelessness towards the good of the majority.

I disagree with your premise and you need to do a lot more work than I
have seen to sell me such a bill of goods. Backup your accusations and
show that they are as cataclysmic and unsustainable as you allege.



> Superficially it can be summed up by the refusal to address the energy
> problem in a rational manner, embodied in the extraordinary and
> irrational rise of the SUV.

I agree that this is a serious shortcoming. I believe that sooner or
later the problem will be addressed because necessity is its own
virtue. Energy irresponsibility is a fact and I don't deny it but it
is solvable and probably sooner rather than latere given the obvious
problems surrounding western energy dependence. At the end of the day
it will be Western free market know how that will show us the way out
of our current crisis.
> >
> > I also know that socialism has almost universally failed everywhere.
>
> Due to power hungry leadership that loses sight of the goals of
> reasonable social behaviour.

No. Rather because socialism is inherently a consumer of wealth and an
economic system that does not attune itself to the realities of human
nature. If we were adifferent species perhaps socialism would work.
But we are what we are and socialism fails and fails absolutely. Of
course abyssmal leadership doesn't help either.


>
> > I
> > also 'Know' that I do not favor unbridled capitalism and indeed nations
> > everywhere have laws to limit the more egrigious and unfair aspects of
> > unbridled capitalism.
>
> Except the Bretton Woods duo.

No. Including Bretton Woods.

>
> > I support these laws and am completely open to
> > any new laws that are reasonable and fair but don't serve to throw the
> > baby out with the bath water.
>
> As does the US at present.

No it does not. The US for whatever its faults promotes economic
freedom. Sometimes the US might not give proper consideration to the
fact that some nations for various reasons cannot freely compete but
essentially the US is supportive of free market systems everywhere and
opposed to socialistic systems everywhere. Reform is one thing but
systemic changes are quite something else and you had better be
prepared to show on a whole host of levels that systemic reform will be
better than what it proposes to replace.
>
> >
> >>You're a waste of time until you get up to speed on the darker realities
> >>of capitalism. Talk about honesty - you display none.
> >
> >
> >>As I said before:-
> >>
> >>Hypocrite
> >
> >
> > You seem very able at name calling and quite good at mouthing leftist
> > and frankly racist mantras you seem to have picked up from various
> > leftist pseudo philosophers who mislead you. As I challenged you a few
> > days ago, I think it is time you grow up and begin to think for
> > yourself. Why not start by posting what your solutions are to the
> > current economic systems used in the USA and UK. What is most wrong
> > and what would you do to correct it? Do you believe in democracy for
> > example? What exactly do you believe in.
>
> See above - this line of yours about 'growing up' have been heard since
> time immemorial from those who refuse to grapple with our innate nature
> - it is you who needs to grow upwards and outwards - I am here referring
> to Americans in general - you have yet to leave the sandpit of kneejerk
> reaction. You have yet to grow beyond the 'Them or Us' mentality.

Be assured that I take nothing you say personally. Far from it.
>
> >
> > I believe we live in an imperfect world and there is much that needs
> > correcting
>
> Agreed. Starting with your present and demonstrably criminal administration.

Certainly not. This is just absurd rhetoric and sloganeering. I
dislike the Bush administration as much as any I can think of.Yet the
US government has a legitimacy that few nations can match. I see Bush
leading us astray at many levels and I am very sorry about it but I
know too that he is only the President of the moment and that the US
system provides eventually the seeds of its own correction. That is
far more than most systems can boast.

What would you like to see regarding the Bush administration. Do you
not respect that he was the Peoples choice and it is up to "We The
People" to remove him according to the laws of our Constitution. Do
you have something better to suggest. Are you sure that whatever you
suggest couldn't be the slippery slope to something far far worse.

>
> > but I believe we are generally moving in theright direction
> > and the changes required are usually specific and not systemic. Do we
> > differ?
>
> Absolutely, as from my perspective no progress can be made whilst one
> country sucks up the resources of the rest of the planet merely to line
> its own nest with useless and meaningless baubles - an attitude so very
> rife in western society bedazzled by US 'can do'.

Well then what do you propose? Just to complain in general on a
newsgroup or do you have specific reform to put on the table?

There is no moral
> foundation in your present course of action towards the planet. There is
> no long-term wisdom in your policies.


In your very humble opinion. Though I tend to agree with you about the
"long Term"part of it. Policy is usually short term but this is the
nature of the beast with democratic government. Still what might be
better and achievable?


Bill

.