Re: Any news from Kensington & Chelsea

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

>> > What they all have in common is the right of the Prime Minister of
>> > the day to call a General Election at any time in the knowledge that
>> > the lottery that is FPTP would probably work in his favour and
>> > against any junior coalition partner. Try comparing some Irish
>> > or Scottish governments instead.

>> Erm this isn't really a factor of STV. In Ireland the Taoiseach can
>> call an election as well. Scotland is currently getting by (but from
>> recollection also has the ability to go back to the polls in a hung
>> situation), but look at the mess in the first term of the Welsh
>> Assembly. Whatever voting system is used doesn't affect this one.

> Er, the big difference for a Taoiseach is that he knows that the result
> of the election will closely mirror how people vote so he won't expect
> an unwarranted majority as Harold Wilson did in 1974.

Historically this has often been pulled off. De Valera was a great master of
sustaining a minority long enough to get a majority.

>> >> > No discernable difference between the main parties?!? That's
>> >> > what we've got at the moment under FPTP!

>> >> There's a darnsight clearer difference between Labour and the
>> >> Conservatives than betwee, say, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael in the
>> >> Republic of Ireland (to use the nearest STV using country).

>> > There used to be, maybe.

>> I know it's Lib Dem ideology that they are the only party that's
>> different but just look at the policies and rhetoric of both major
>> parties and you'll see that there is a real alternative between the
>> statist, public sector expanding, money wasting Labour Party and the
>> common sense approach of the Conservative Party.

> I suggest you look more carefully at your leader's utterances and
> behaviour.

Yes and he's been setting out some clear water, backing away from needless
confrontation for the sake of it and pushing a real difference for education
from what Labour (note thatt, not Bliar) wants.

Meanwhile your leader's utterances have all been of the "I'm still here" and
"Don't you dare depose me" line.

>> >> Those aren't STV elections. And the German SPD is still in
>> >> government. When exactly was the "Grand Coalition" offered to the
>> >> electorate? Voters who voted for the CDU/CSU were offered a
>> >> coalition with the FDP, not with the SPD.

>> > I agree that STV would be better in Germany. Irish governments have
>> > lost elections of course.

>> Yes but mainly depending on deals amongst other parties. In 1992
>> Fianna Fail lost the election - but were then kept in power by Labour
>> (until they switched horses mid Dail), whom most voters had expected
>> to be in a coalition with Fine Gael and the PDs if they had the votes.

> That's a possibility whenever the electorate doesn't give an overall
> majority
> to any party, as in mots countries.

But it's fundamentally bad for the electorate as a whole to see parties
going against the noises previously made and forming these strange
coalitions when in the election the choice has been explicitly a "this one
or that one". And they don't like it - look at the way Labour in Ireland
were given their comeuppances for their coalition with Fianna Fail. How can
the electorate turn out a government it doesn't like if a smaller party will
keep it in?

>> > Look at the state of the Irish and British economies now and 15
>> > years ago. And see the differences in Scotland from England on this
>> > score too.

>> I fail to see how the Celtic Tiger is directly or only attributable
>> to the Dail's voting system. Care to elaborate? And Scotland has more
>> public money available for it, making the comparison an unfair one.

> Government isn't based on smoke and mirrors to try and sustain an
> artificial
> majority in parliament?

As opposed to government that is based on keeping the disparate parts of a
coalition together "and sustain an artificial majority in parliament"?

>> So using STV would magically solve the problem and get a law banning
>> this tpe of hostage taking passed would it?

> No, but it might change the confrontational climate surrounding all
> government
> in this country.

Looking at the 1976-1979 hung parliament was there a solution to the problem
of the trade unions doing this sort of thing? It took firm government to set
them right.


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