Re: Regulating acupuncturists etc

Citizen Jimserac <Jimserac@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:32 pm, Sleepalot <sleepalo...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
CitizenJimserac<Jimse...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Nov 23, 3:28 am, Sleepalot <sleepalo...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dave Smith <da...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Though it seems a good idea to regulate practitioners of alternative
medicine,  doing so may also give them unmerited recognition and
status?

Alternative medicine professions 'need statutory regulation'

Worrying about the efficacy of homeopathy, or the hygene
of accupunture needles entirely misses an essential point:
diagnosis.

Acupuncturists have been using fresh disposable, use once and
discard, needles for quite some time.

You have to read all the way to the full-stop. Hth.

Cam practitioners are not trained or equiped to make diagnoses.
Further, they only see patients with symptoms.

Excuse me they most certainly are trained to make
diagnoses.

Well go on - don't just gainsay me. What proportion of
pratising Homeopathists have an MD?

Ah! but the AMA forced the CLOSURE of the Homepathic
medical colleges a hundred years ago - the last one closed
in the 1930's I believe. And their scope of practice
is restricted to the Homeopathic remedies, which, by
the way, are regulated by law by the FDA/

So how do you substantiate your claim that homeopathists
are trained to make diagnoses? Btw, this is a UK group.

I notice you didn't contradict me on the question of equipment.
There's not much advantage in being able to interpret an X-ray
plate if you don't have acess to an X-ray machine, is there?

Training of Acupuncturists inlcudes a course in X-ray evaluation.

You really aren't too good at reading, are you?

Why they do not get is the long internship and residency
and scope of experience of an MD, nor should they.

Why shouldn't they?

Because their scope of practice is different.

In what way?

Do you have any idea of the amount of specialized material
that a Homeopathic physician or an Acupuncture physician
must master before even being allowed to take the board exams
and apply for a license?

No. Is it more than an MD?

Apples and oranges.

....are both sold by weight. You asked me about _the ammount_
of material... .

The MD is studying different things.

... except when they're studying the same things, apparently.

How many supervised and clinic hours must be completed?

No. Is it more than an MD?
Apples and Oranges, the scope of practice is different.

In what way?

How many new and repeat patients must be seen.

No. Is it more than an MD?
Apples and oranges, the scope of practice is different.

In what way?

The key thing is that the CAM physician

What's a "physician"?
Someone who cures the patient.

Heh. By that definition there's no such thing as a "physician".

knows enough to REFER the patient to the appropriate MD
or specialist for additional tests or for treatment outside their
scope of practice.

Which rather begs the question as to what's _inside_ "their scope
of practice". I'd be very interested to hear what conditions no
homeopathist would attempt to treat.

Often its cases that MD's failed to heal.

You didn't answer my question.

You've allowed your thinking to be clouded by media innuendo and
this "quackbuster" nonsense.

You mean you'd prefer I listened to you. Who the hell are you?

NO, I prefer that you learn to think for yourself
instead of being so damn gullible.

You're speaking beyond your apparent level of competence again.

Their are great MD's out there and there are a few quacks.
Same with alternative medicine.


Have you ANY idea of the growth of CAM in the last few years
or the projected growth?

No. Do tell.

Do you have ANY idea why?

No. Do tell.

Because it works,

Prove it.

and people find out fast and they tend to go to the system of
medicine that cures them without side effects and expensive
drugs that cause more problems.

Well look at you, promoting quackery!

By contrast, my doctor got me a cancer diagnosis before I had
symptoms, purely on the basis of a remark I made in passing
about my family history. Had I made that remark to a Cam
merchant, no action would've come of it, and I'd be dead now.

Trying viewing "Mystery Diagnosis" on American TV

Don't be silly.

I'm serious

So am I. I'm not travelling 3,000 miles to watch a tv show!

- you can learn all lot about what happens when
the diagnosis problem fails or gets mixed up.
Doctors are not gods, they make mistakes and they work
hard and agonize over conflicting test results to come up with
a diagnosis. Their system of medicine is grounded
in viewing the body as a collection of diseased parts,
a mechanistic viewpoint and a reductionist one and it has
gone about as far as it can go. They've done great
things and saved lives and they've left many people
out in the cold, dissatisfied and fed up. That's reality.

Here lies the "God of the gaps" argument.

for the bad news of what happens when there is either no diagnosis
(patient is sent home, it's "all in your head", or, it's just stress, or
there is a wrong diagnosis which gets treated perfectly leaving the
patient thinking he is OK, until a few days later when...whoops).

You're using the difficulties of diagnosis as an argument _against_
conventional medicine? Do homeopathists never fail to make a
diagnosis? Do they never say "it's all in your head"? Do they never
make a mis-diagnosis? Do their patients always recover?

You bet they don't - just like MD's.

So your argument fails.

Oh no, this one true medicine bull*** is ancient history, nonsense
that was easy to spread in the days before the Internet.

I'm a two-time cancer survivor. It took more than magic water
to cure me!

You're very lucky to have surivived the standard treatment -

The "standard treatment" is the one you're most likely to survive!

it's all we have right now. There is research ongoing in Chinese
herbology
and in Homeopathy but it's in the early stages. No you think
about this - for over 40 YEARS we have poured BILLIONS
of dollars into cancer reearch.

Yes, cancer is a complex disease.

Billions. Oh there has been breakthroughs
and improvement in treatment, the childhood leukemia survivability is
much higher now - but I ask you, is that money really being
well spent considering the "results" we have gotten from it.

I don't know, do you?

A few large powerful cancer organizations wield enormous
influence and the pharmaceutical drug company connections
with MD schools, hospitals and their political influence is not
a healthy situation. Reforms are needed.

Possibly - but I won't just take your word for it.

Read "The Secret History of the War on Cancer" (recent book)
to learn more. It's good.

No thanks - I've got enough on my plate.

The internet blasted the lid off of the control of medical information
and the easy disparagement of alternative systems.
For the first time, tens of thousands of people could search for,
and find information that their "side effects" from certain drugs
was not an isolated instance, but instead was being experienced by
thousands of other people.

That's the nature of drugs: anything that can have an effect, can have
a side-effect. Indeed I've had a drug prescribed to me on the basis of
one of it's side effects: I've been prescribed anti-depressants for
pain relief: and they worked: and they cheeed me up, too!
That homeopathic treatments don't have side-effects is a clue that
they might not work!

As I pointed out in my other resopnse to this,
the presence or absence of side effects is not a
guide to the efficacy of the drug.

True.

If anything, the existence of side effects indicates that one
medicine fits all theory does not work and can be downright
harmful to a certain percentage of patients.

What "one medicine fits all" theory is that? The homeopathic
"one magic water potion cures all ills" theory, or your strawman
theory that bears not resemblence to reality at all?

For the first time, people could find out of the remarkable history
and details of alternative systems such as Acupuncture,
Chinese Herbology and Homeopathy and get enough
information to make an informed freedom of medical choice.

Not everything to be found on the internet is "information": the
greater part of it is crap.

Well a good part of is, true - Caveat Emptor.

Indeed, and caveat venditor, wrt your promoting quackery.


--
Sleepalot aa #1385

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