Re: At the edge


Peter Ashby wrote:
Lance <LanceGary@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Philip wrote:
"Lance" <LanceGary@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1181737034.786433.320610@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jun 11, 3:37 pm, Mark.Wri...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Lance <LanceG...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

: OK - but the measurements would still show the curvature of space that
: a doughnut would necessitate - and the articles by physicists and
: astronomers themselves say that the space in which we live seems to be
: flat - i.e., Euclidean.

How about a higher dimensional equivalent of a Mobius Strip? There are a
number of higher dimensional shapes that appear flat when viewed from the
lower dimensions because the curvature is contained entirely within the
higher dimensions.
See also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_space

It seems very clever, but doesn't it fall foul of Ockham's razor?

Rather the opposite, I would have thought, since it suggests that the "edge
of the universe" and all the problematic speculations that involves is a
needless multiplication of entities.

Ah dear Philip, patronising as ever.

I would have thought the big bang theory brought all those
"problematic speculations" into being. And indeed, the same point
applies to Mark's answer. If the Big bang happened (and many
astonomers think it did), then the universe is NOT infinite, whatever
the horizon of events that we can perceive may be. And if the universe
is not infinite, then it has a boundary, even if it is not one we can
reach. So go patronise yourself for a while, do.

The problem is Lance is that your idea of an edge fails to take several
things into account.

1. Geometry of space time.

2. there can be no 'outside' to form the other side of this 'edge'

You are applying the idea of space that your brain has evolved to enable
you think about without any other tools. Cosmologists and physicists
have developed tools, largely mathematical, to enable them to think
about it differently that renders your tools inadequate. This causes
people to ask such questions as yours as well as what was there 'before'
the big bang? Such questions serve simply to display the ignorance
and/or lack of understanding of the questioner.

Peter


--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
www.the-brights.net

Again you patronise me because in fact cosmologists DO ask the
questions I ask. I have, for example, seen articles by cosmologists on
the question of what came before the Big Bang - and if I recall
rightly the cosmologist speculated wildly by suggesting that the Big
Bang was just one of many that have happened in sequence. The question
about what might lie outside (hence the notion of an edge) of the
universe created by the Big bang has also been considered. For example
I saw a TV program in which learned cosmologists speculated about two
or more "universes colliding", with the collision producing certain
effects in the time and space we experience. I understand that there
may be no good answers to these questions, maybe no intelligible
answers even, but telling me that would be more honest than pretending
that I am just stupid and can't understand. I asked the question
because I do indeed find it very difficult to grasp what a possible
answer could be, and because I had been reading some "metaphysics" on
the nature of space and time. But anyway,

Thanks for your intervention. I'll shut up.

Lance

.

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