Re: On Determinism


alex....@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
Peter.H.M.Brooks@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

If it isn't, then there is a simple question. Some people are known to
be 'more spontaneous' than others [other people seek to be 'more
spontaneous' but that is another matter]. If you accept this is the
case, then it would seem that it is more part of personality than
'random'. Or do some personalities have more access to 'randomness'
than others? If they do, what do you think the mechanism might be by
which they access this 'randomness'?


Spontaneity as used in natural language, often considered as
something desirable, is not the same thing as randomness -- someone
with tourette syndrome is not usually considered spontaneous in this
sense. I am saying that randomness is a necessary component of
spontaneity, not that they are the same thing.

It isn't clear what you mean by 'randomness is a necessary component'.
What is meant by 'randomness' in this context? How does it differ from
somebody with tourette's? I'm not sure if there is any sense in which
tourette's is 'random'. It is surely a product of brain functions, even
if they are defective ones.

As for someone having more access to randomness, I don't see any
problem with that. Assuming a source of randomness (say, the movement
of some molecules in the brain), different neural networks could tap
differently into it: some networks would be linked extensively to it,
others less so; some networks could have a higher threshold for acting
on that randomness; and some networks could have an inhibitory effect
on the transmission of that randomness into other parts of the brain. I
don't see any difficulty with such an account in principle.

The 'movement of some molecules in the brain' is not random, no more
than the movement of some molecules anywhere else. Each movement is
determined by physical laws, in particular the conservation of energy.
If they weren't, then, as I've mentioned before, there'd be a
contradiction in the way the Universe works so profound that we could
expect aeroplanes, cars and electricity not to work (not to mention the
sun and the stars)!

So this is the point on which your theory founders. If that is the
mechanism you see, then there is no possibility of randomness.

If you mean 'random' in the sense of unexpected or unpredictable to the
brain, then that pretty well describes the standard firing of the
neutrons - which leaves us where we started as well.


Regarding moral responsibility, as I've argued in another post, I
see the issue as somewhat orthogonal to the determinism vs. free-will
debate.
However, one conceivable theory would be that in a purely
deterministic world, as well as in a world evolving in a purely random
manner, the concept of responsibility for one's actions makes no sense.
But an action determined by my brain, against the background of
randomness, and only in contrast with randomness, can be said to be an
action for which I can be held responsible.
I don't have an extensively developed theory on these lines
however.

That doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I'm not sure that it is
possible to imagine a world evolving in a purely random way -
'evolving' and 'random' are simply contradictory, there has to be some
stasis for something to evolve, even if an external environmental event
might introduce a mutation (that you can call 'random' from the point
of view of the evolutionary process, though, of course, from the point
of view of the Universe, it isn't), you need a stable, non-random
process for the evolution to occur.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: On Determinism
    ... Or do some personalities have more access to 'randomness' ... Spontaneity as used in natural language, ... Regarding moral responsibility, as I've argued in another post, I ... see the issue as somewhat orthogonal to the determinism vs. free-will ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)
  • Re: On Determinism
    ... Regarding the "control of the mental event" part, ... spontaneity in one's actions that is caused by randomness. ... if 'spontaneity' is just 'randomness' then nobody can ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)
  • Re: On Determinism
    ... not randomness, not sponataneity. ... randomness and spontaneity within the brain. ... randomness - just that it exists in the brain. ... So deal with it by focussing on the issues at hand instead of all these ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)
  • Re: On Determinism
    ... Control is exercised by circuits in the ... brain that might also do their job in a deterministic world -- it is ... spontaneity in one's actions that is caused by randomness. ... I don't think randomness or spontanuity is important to free-will as these would seem to involve little or no will. ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)
  • Re: On Determinism
    ... Regarding the "control of the mental event" part, ... spontaneity in one's actions that is caused by randomness. ... I don't think randomness or spontanuity is important to free-will as these ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)