Re: Einstein might have had a point

Lance <LanceGary@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

These are two interesting arguments Lance. For me, the emotive and
philosophical arguments and scientific arguments point in opposite
directions. I want to believe in free will, but still cant see where it
fits into the laws of physics.

: Universal causation from quarks to nebula must mean that there is room
: neither for morality nor reason. Morality requires that people could do
: otherwise. If people actually can't do other than they do, then trying
: to morally evaluate them is, in Ryle's terms, to make a category
: mistake. Peter Brooks lays in to Tony Blair but if the sort of
: causality he claims to be happy with is true then Tony Blair's actions
: were imminent in the Big Bang, and so was Peter Brooks' indignation at
: Tony Blair's actions. Both are bits of driftwood following a path that
: was inevitable some 15 billion years ago. Morality is utterly
: irrelevant.

I agree that morality loses much of its meaning in a deterministic
universe. However, it isnt utterly irrelevant - morality is still a
measurement class that we can apply to behaviours. Just because the
subject has no choice doesnt make it irrelevant. We can label people as
French, white, tall, etc, and they have no influence over those; but it
can still be a useful form of classification.

I'm not sure what can be learned from trying to find the perfect morality
in a deterministic universe though. Since we have no choice in it it seems
like a futile thing to do... and yet things that we discover in morality
will make their way into future generations, and is usually a good
thing. Of course, that was determined too (although no pre-destined,
because of quantum probability). It may be that morality then is like
evolution, because even though we dont directly affect it, it happens and
we are a part of it happening right now.

: Similarly reason has no place. Consider trying to design a piece of
: machinery to implement a logical operator. However it is designed I
: have to know that it is working correctly. But if the logic circuits in
: my brain are just causal processes (and they are, arent they) based on
: neural connections then I am really just checking the circuit against
: what was programmed in me by evolution. But evolution must aslo be a
: causal process, and we know that it is quite as likely to follow local
: maxima as global maxima (adaption to niches are unstable and disappear,
: etc) so even evolution offers no warranty that my reasoning is right.
: Reasoning then has no independent standing apart from the long chain of
: causes that stretch back to the big bang. Since we are enmeshed in a
: chain of causes and everything we do is caused, we can't evaluate
: correctness or soundness from a vantage point outside of that chain.
: Whatever we say, "Correct" or "wrong", is itself the result of a
: process that is not based on the correctness or soundness of the
: argument or evidence before us - it is based on a chain of causes that
: long before inevitably made what we say inevitable.

This is interesting, but I dont really think it's sound. You are
effectively saying that a created entity cant analyse itself. I dont see
why that follows.
Mark

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