Re: What a mess, eh?

On 2009-04-18, Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Whiskers <catwheezel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Whiskers <catwheezel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Whiskers <catwheezel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Whiskers <catwheezel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[...]

Look, if we had a driving licence setup such that only the people with
good driving skills were able to get a driving licence, then your point
of view would have a lot going for it.

That is something else I'm on favour of.

I reckon there ought to be some sort of way of ensuring that you can't
get any sort of driving licence without doing training in a car, on a
bike, and in a lorry. Except of course that not everyone who can drive
a car can ride a bike and... But aside from that, I think it'd be a
good idea so that everyone on the road understood things from the
different points of view.

And while I'm at it, driving training ought to include special
pedestrian sections - that is, you go out with your instructor on foot
and walk around and he points out stuff to help you see and understand
the world from the ped's point of view for when you're driving.

An age-related progression from 'Green Cross code' (or whatever it is now)
for kids old enough to go to school, to 'Cycling Proficiency', to
'Compulsory Basic Training' and 'Road Test' on a moped, and then anyone
wanting a full licence for a motorcycle or car should automatically get
training on both - and car drivers should need to get to a standard at
least as good as the current bike tests before being allowed to go solo.
Then a 'probationary' period subject to power and weight restrictions and
further training and tests for dark, motorways, ice, etc before being
given 'free rein'. HGV and Bus driving should be something you can only
get to after further experience on motorbikes *and* cars. Naturally there
would need to be special arrangements for those physically unable to walk
or manage two wheels, without preventing them from getting a 'full' car
licence if appropriate. The psych tests should come in somewhere at the
moped stage, I think. (I know mopeds can be a real menace in the wrong
hands - but at least the rider is likely to come off worst, and probably
survive anyway).

Yeah, we all walk here and there but how many people actually think
about the traffic dynamics of how all road users including pedstrians
fit together? I know I do - I see the interactions between all road
users as a sort of dance. But I can see that most people don't see it
like that.

They don't; even with physically good senses they often don't seem to see
it at all.

But (again) I read (or heard on the radio, I forget) recently about how
to cross the road in one of those Asian nations with chaotic scooters
everywhere. The trick is to walk at a constant speed across the road -
oncoming traffic will know where you're going and will ride round you.
Do not change pace - that only leads to disaster.

I was taught a similar method in Mexico City. It does work, mostly.
(Just after I left, a plane came down on one of the main streets - but you
can't legislate or practice much for that sort of thing).

So it seems that in nations where all the road users have to fit in with
each other by paying attention to everyone, /everyone/ (who's going to
survive) works it like a dance. Why not try to get pretty much everyone
on our roads to use 'em the same way? <heh> Should be able to get the
BNP to agree: `What do you mean, you're not as good as a Cambodian?' ;-)

Central London streets often work that way too, but with the added
complication of traffic lights and so on which do confound attempts at
'common sense'.

But if you only had good drivers
on the road, then they'd benefit from the driver aids because good
drivers *do* learn to do things properly - that's kind of inherent to
being a good driver.

But stuff that gets between the driver and the real controls, makes it
impossible to learn how to use those controls properly.

I don't see that traction control, ABS, and electronic stability control
get between the driver and the real controls - they're all over-rides
that kick in to keep things sweet if the driver's not controlling things
properly himself (well, stability control involves applying the brakes
on each wheel independently, so I gather - can't do that with one foot).

You should learn to drive without all that stuff - I'd like to see more
training and a more stringent test - but I can't see that it's anything
but helpful on the road.

Hmmm. If could be turned off ...

Look, either you can learn to control a car well in which case you'll
learn in your initial training (if it includes all the stuff we both
want to see in that line), or you can't and either shouldn't get a
licence or will need some help to be safe.

Either way, I don't see any downside to the sort of driver aids that
exist now.

They really do encourage worse driving. People tend to drive to the limit
of what they feel they can manage - and that means to the limit of the
'traction control' etc if fitted, which means all hell is let loose when
the robots get to their limits, unless the robots refuse to get anywhere
near that point in which case they can become a hindrance in an emergency.

Without all the clever gubbins, a car reaches different limits at
different points and the driver can learn to feel where they are and how
to avoid them - or exploit them, if they want to develop their skill as
much as possible. (Learning off road, of course!).

I would like to see snow, ice, and motorway, driving as part of the
driving test - along with a psychological test to weed out those
temperamentally unfit.

I've heard that if you fail your driving test three times in Germany,
you have to have a psychological examination before you can try again to
see if you're suitable to drive at all.

And the Finnish driving test does involve training at least on exciting
road surfaces.

At least they can rely on nature providing them fairly predictably; one of
the problems with British weather is that we don't get enough snow and ice
every year to be prepared for it when it does happen. (I don't think I've
ever seen 'snow chains' on sale in a shop, for example).

What we have are roads covered in drivers who just aren't up to the job,
drivers who shouldn't be driving at all.

Watching people trying to park, it amazes me that some of them ever got a
licence - they must have been able to do it for the test, so why can't
they do it now?

<grin> I don't mind dodgy parking so much as I mind the crazy things
they do when they're travelling. Hello? See that stalk sticking out
the side of the steering column? It controls the *indicators*?
Remember them? Orange flashy thingies to tell other road users where
you intend to go?

Argh.

My first ever motorcycle crash was caused by some sod not bothering with
indicators or mirrors (and my own inexperience, 'cos I've never let that
particular problem occur again). And they get used even less these
days.

[...]

(I'd like to point out that if my emergency stop had been at full force,
my front wheel would not have gone over the line, but when I do an
emergency stop, I slow down at the slowest rate practical - basically, I
aim to come to a halt at `just enough before the obstruction such that
if I have one instance of wheel lock-up, I can recover without hitting
anything. The idea is to use all the tarmac available in such
circumstances.)

That's what an emergency stop should be - just quick enough. The more
time and space you can give the driver behind you, the better, too.

Yup. But that sort of thing is a secondary consideration; I usually
have quite a big gap behind me in any case. Any car that does follow me
too closely soon gets the hint that I want a bit more space behind me,
ta. Often by me showing rear brake and turning and giving the driver a
Paddington stare (police training, that). If that doesn't work, showing
rear brake and slowing down quite a bit often gets the message across.

My most scary experience was driving a Reliant trike along a narrow twisty
Cornish lane, with a huge over-loaded coal lorry almost pushing me along
far faster than either of us should have been going. He wouldn't have
seen any brake-lights, he was too close for that. (I pulled over into a
wide bit ASAP, and the trike was rocked by the suction as the lorry went
past with its horns blaring). I believe it may have been his load that
was shed a bit further on.

Alternatively, if the conditions allow it, I might stand up and have a
stretch (something else I had police training to do - honest). You
should see how quickly the buggers fall back when I start doing that
sort of thing...

Rowland.

I can imagine. You're so unkind to the poor motorist ... <G>

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
.

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