Re: Just venting (totally OT)

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote in
news:1ibhddk.1wjp9ck13uxbzvN%real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote in
news:1ibeams.zme1fg1wc8csuN%real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell)
wrote:

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell)
wrote:

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[snip]

`CVT' transmission means `automatic' rather than `manual gear
change' (continuously variable, so it doesn't change gears at
all as such, oh never mind the details - you just twist and go,
and it's dead dead smooth)

Sounds cool!

If you like that kind of thing. I don't - I'd rather have a proper
gearbox and clutch, because it's very very very hard to ride slowly
without a proper clutch.


I didn't know you had gearboxes on bikes?!?

If you've got a petrol or a diesel engine driving your wheels, you
need to be able to change gear. Lots of scooters have some sort of
automatic transmission but that's a problem from the point of view of
good control at low speed - you might notice that a lot of scooter
riders keep their feet down at low speed. That's not because their
bad at riding, but because unless you've got a conventional gearbox
and clutch, it's fearsomely difficult to control a bike going slowly.


Ah right!

Anyway, all `in production' big bikes have gearboxes and clutches very
similar to what you have a in car. The fine details are generally
different - most bikes use a clutch that runs in the engine oil, while
cars have `dry clutches' (mostly), and bikes gearboxes don't have
syncromesh so one must take precautions against crunching gears rather
more (but `no syncromesh' means a gearbox that's stronger for the
weight). And most bikes have at least 5 gears, usually 6.


Blimey!

Honda once made a big bike with an car type automatic gearbox, but it
was heavy and slow and unpopular.

But right back to the very early days of motorcycling, there have been
bikes with `continuously variable transmission' (CVT) as in modern
scooters - you do that with pullies that change size and a drive belt
between them. Modern scooters are arranged so the gear ratio changes
automatically, but the earliest examples needed manual operation but
still gave a smooth, continuous variation in ratio. What am I saying?
I mean one bike, the Rudge Multi:

<http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Directories/Rudge%20Bikes/pages/Ru
d ge-Multi-1920s.htm>

<http://users.senet.com.au/~mitchell/bikes/rudge/html/multi.htm>


Okey dokes

Yamaha makes a huge bike with a handlebar push-button gear change -
but it's got a normal gearchange foot pedal too. No clutch lever, I
gather, which makes it awkward to ride at low speed. It's a bit of a
`okay, this is an option, does anyone like it?' sort of thing - it's a
proper production bike, but they're experimenting with the market, you
know?


Ah right!

(btw, I came across the citation for:

J. F. Rudge. Multi-Agent Linear-Quadratic-Guassian Systems with "Poor"
Observations. SIAM J. Control and Optimization, 16(5):832--846,
September 1978.

when looking for stuff on the Rudge Multi motorcycle...)


Now you're starting to loose me... sorry!

[snip]

There is no Mac version of PSP, so there's no point in asking
them. The best thing to do is ask on <news://uk.comp.sys.mac>
about what'd be a good graphics program for a Windoze PSP
user to look at on a Mac.

I'll ask when I get the Mac otherwise I'll forget what they
said
:o(

That makes some sort of sense; but - oh, sod it, if you're
looking at things like that, what the hell. Dive in, why not?

Okey dokes! I'll ask them after I've sent this off :o) If I
forget can you remind me though please?

<grin> If you can remind me to remind you, I can probably figure
out what I should have been reminding you of.

Can't remember! lol

<grin> Ah, but I can remember what it is you want to do:

MS FrontPage
Poser
PSP


Okey dokes! I'll try and remember this time! lol

Still, in your position, I'd want to ask what's what beforehand
just to check that what I wanted was out there even if I did
forget the details. You can always ask again later, once you've
got a Mac.
Or you could tell me and I could keep track of it all for you,
maybe (well, I've got buckets of disc space and a broadband
connection - I could just make a folder called `Mandy' and put
all the bits in it for `as and when')

If you could that would be brilliant! Thank you sooo much!

If we manage to get things together well enough to identify what
you might need, it'd be no trouble at all.

A laptop with enough hard drive space and memory for me to play with
Poser 7 atm

But you want something that'll do for `not just at the moment' -
really. It's daft thinking of buying a Mac now and then a more
expensive one if you like it - the Mac you get should do for whatever.

I can't afford a laptop with all the things I need on it though right now
:o(

But the laptop you identified to buy did in fact have all the hardware
you need - except you might need to add some RAM, and there's the whole
disc space business.

You're unlikely to find any laptop with a HDD that's big enough for you
at the moment, if you ask me.

In short, if you can afford any Mac laptop, you can afford one with all
the things you need on it - software aside.

Anyway, you said that PSP pipes use a lot of disc space. How much
disc space for a typical pipe?

Hold on and I'll look... for a simple, 1 layer tube it's 163.4kb and for
a more complicated tube with lots of layers it's 249.3kb and I've got
tens of thousands!

<stunned> Blimey. At that rate, you're looking at roughly 2.5BG per
10,000. Roughly 25 gigabytes for 100,000.

So: if you've only got tens of thousands (what on Earth are they for?),
you don't need a /very/ big HDD by current standards. 160GB should do,
at a guess. 250-500GB would be plenty enough, but I'm not sure if HDDs
that big are in laptops yet.

[snip]

Ah right :o( I'll keep using PSP on this machine then! :o)

No, no! Ask on uk.comp.sys.mac for what you might use - *I*
don't know of anything, but I'm not really a person who does
graphics. I need an image converter, and something to crop and
rotate pictures (there's a scanner on the desk) and maybe do
colour correction. Graphic Converter's great for that, so that's
what I use.

Okey dokes! I'll ask when I've sent this off to you but if you
haven't seen anything come through by tomorrow morning I will have
forgotten and need a poke in the ribs :o/

Okay-dokey.

Oops! Forgot to ask about that too! I'll try and remember when I've
sent this off :o)

And did you? (nudge, nudge).

Oops! lol I'll try and remember when I've sent you this... I've just
got to remember to look back at the message! :o)

Don't try to remember to look back - next time you come across this,
break of from replying to me and ask your question on uk.comp.sys.mac.
If you've got a lousy memory, the only way you're going to get things
done is do 'em when they're in your mind, yes?

[snip]

Now you're starting to confuzzle me... what are computer things
doing in cars??

Running everything. To take one example: there's a computer in a
box in most cars that runs the `engine management system' -
deciding when to spark the spark plugs, how much fuel to pump in
each stroke with the fuel injectors, and I don't know what else.
It's run by a special type of computer designed for such jobs.
Apparently, there's one BMW model with something like 30 PowerPC
CPUs built into it, each of them running something different.
Don't ask me what - I dunno.

Blimey!

It might sound like a lot, but in some cases


!!!

Ah. Erm. In some cases (I meant to say), there's a good reason for
having four computers to do the job of one.

In situations where you need high reliability, like aeroplane control
and running the Docklands Light Railway, you have four computers all
working on the same job and voting on what to do: the majority wins.
That way, if one computer breaks down or comes across a bug in its
software, it can be ignored.

(all the computers run programs that do the same thing but were written
by different people)

Cars *OUGHT* to have the same arrangement for the safety-critical
computers, but I'm not sure that they do.

Lorries don't, and they don't even have to pass the same standards for
not being upset by outside electrical interference as cars. So the
vehicles on our roads most likely to run out of control due to
electrical interference are - that's right - the lorries. Up to and
including the big HGVs.

What tends to happen is that they usually just stop when they suffer
electrical interference problems, but...

[snip]

If your home computers are connected to a home network using
wires, the networking standard that they're using is
Ethernet. Unless Steve is completely insane, that is.

We've got wires going from all the computers into the router
(or whatever it's called) but other than that there aren't any
wires between our machines

Yeah, but they all plug in to the router, don't they? So
they're all connected to each other via that box of tricks, yes?

Maybe router was the wrong word then? The thing that gives all
the computers and the laptop internet access...

That's the router - but if you want to plug more than one thing
into it, there will usually be a `hub' or `switch' built into the
`router' box, so you can plug in multiple machines. And that means
they have the potential to talk to each other via that link -
probably.

Oh right! You're starting to loose me now... sorry!

Right.

It's like this: if you want to connect `lots of different computers to
the internet via a router', you need to plug them all in to the
router, yes?

Right.


So far so good...

The way it works is that the router has *ONE* connection to `your
computers at home' and *ONE* connection to the internet. `computers'
plug in one side, `the internet' is on the other side.

But you can plug lots of computers into it, yes?

Right.


I *think* so...

The way that works is that you have a special box of tricks (probably
built into the router box) that lets you plug in more than one
computer. This special gadget is also connected to the router - and
any normal gadget of that type lets everything it's plugged in to it
talk to each other. So a computer that's plugged in to it is
connected to all the other computers plugged in to it.


Now you're starting to loose me HHIS

This box of tricks is either a switch (faster but more expensive) or a
hub (slower but cheaper). Either one permits lots of computers to
plug into a single box and for their signals to be zapped to the
single router connection. Thing is, a normal hub or switch doesn't
just `combine lots of computers and shoves the signal out down one
wire', it lets `anything plugged in to it talk to anything else
plugged in to it'.


OK

So unless your router is an odd one of a type I've never heard of
(there's a lot in the universe I don't know about), all your computers
that you have at home which connect to the router are physically
connected to a home computer network. They might not be set up to use
it for anything but internet access, but you've got a home computer
network (almost certainly)


So what has the modem got to do with it then? Apparently (IIRC) all the
computers plug into the router which plugs into the modem which goes
outside and then something happens and it's connected to the internet

That's it: the computers actually plug into a hub or switch, and *that*
connects to the router, and *that* connects to the modem - and that's
your link to the internet.

I don't know what arrangement of boxes you've got, but *here*, we've got
one box with the hub, router, and modem all packaged together.

[snip]

I told you I was no good with
technical stuff!! :o)

Pfft. You're better than you think. Most people are.

I need you to explain so much to me though!

<shrug> Well, yes - but think about it: you've never had access to
decent explanations, and your memory is rather out to lunch at the
moment. It's taken me decades to learn what I've learnt. Okay, I
don't have the really serious in-depth knowledge that some people have
after learning for decades - but I was playing around doing `hackery'
things with a BBC Micro when I was a kid at school.

Oh right! Other than the Spectrum I didn't have access to computers
until I hit college!

Spectrums were nice machines that were entirely suitable for playing
hackery type games with. Not as readily as with something as well
equipped as the much more expensive BBC Micro, but so what?

Thing is, back in those days, you could get proper manuals for
computers. They don't write proper manuals any more, so it's horribly
difficult to learn the basic stuff about `how it all works' even if
you *are* technically minded (and I am). Don't blame yourself.

It's my fault for having such a bad memory though! :o(

<raised eyebrow> Now then! It wasn't your fault you got ill, was it?

If I knew what I was doing
with computers then I wouldn't need you to! :o/

You've been taught enough to allow yourself to do some things you want
to do on a computer. The teaching you've had isn't very good because
it was just aimed at `teaching you how to use some software' rather
than `teaching you about computers'.

*nodding* :o(

[snip]

I didn't install SP2 on my old machine 'cos I heard so many
negative things about it!

<gulp> That was not a good idea. I don't know a lot about
Windoze, but I do know that Service Pack 2 for Windoze XP is
one that *EVERYONE* running Windoze XP should have installed
as soon as possible. Honest.

That's pretty much what Steve said but I'd heard from too many
people that it screwed their computer up so I didn't install it

Do you still have Windoze XP in the house? Seriously,
seriously, seriously pay attention to your Steve. Windoze XP
without SP2 is a major security problem for one thing.

There's definitely one with Windows XP without SP2 on, I'm not
sure if Steve's got XP or Vista on his machines

You really need to install SP2. Really.

I just don't want it to screw up the machine though!

*NOT* installing SP2 is causing you to run a huge risk of having your
machine screwed up by attacks from the internet.

Oh :o(

Yes. That's why people keep having a go at you to install the thing.

[snip]

Steve doesn't use the same programmes that I use though and it's
those programmes (PSP and Poser) that had most of the problems
IIRC

I've just looked: lots of people had problems with all sorts of things.
I've found no mention of problems with Poser, and very few problems with
PSP - and the PSP problems are easy to work around. Fixes were worked
out almost immediately from what I've seen, just as I thought they would
have been.

You've been advised by idiots, you have.

The most common problems people had with SP2 were related to the extra
security between the computer and the internet - so programs that talked
to the 'net sometimes had trouble, and that took dealing with.

Poser and PSP are not internet apps, and so they fall far outside the
category of `most of the problems'.

I don't know what you think you're remember, but I've just done the
research on the Web to find out about the problems people had, and it
turns out you're wrong as far as I can tell.

<stunned> Well, I'd be astonished if the current versions of any
Windoze software had any trouble with XP SP2. You don't fancy
checking again, do you? I seriously strongly urge you to install
SP2 if you find you can do so without messing up your applications.

So many people had trouble with it and didn't know how to sort it out
though so I'd prefer not to install it. Sorry!

Mandy, I'm telling you to install SP2 to save you trouble - to spare
you suffering nasty attacks from nasty people on the internet. SP2
makes Win XP secure. Without SP2, Win XP is horribly insecure. I
might be a Mac user, but I did pay attention when it came out: SP2 is
when WinXP turned into a pretty okay operating system.

Maybe I will one day but I'd prefer not to right now...

If your XP box is used on the internet, it's crazy not to.

Don't say `sorry' - I'm telling you that you need SP2 for the health
of your computer. Do you think I'm going to be harmed if you don't
install SP2? Of course not! Am I going to get money or other gain
from you installing SP2? Of course not!

Even so, I'm turning your sensible advice down... sorry!

But you can upgrade to XP SP2 and keep using your software. So why not?

It's so vitally important to install SP2 on any WinXP machine that
connects to the internet. Okay, people have had trouble with it - of
course. But you're exposing yourself to a risk of much worse trouble
without it. The thing to do is find out how to get round the trouble
and I'm *CERTAIN* that someone has come up with workarounds for your
problems - they always do with this sort of thing.

I'd still prefer not to though!

<shrug> Okay, so you want your computer taken over by hackers. I don't
understand why, but there you go.

I've found workarounds for PSP problems under WinXP SP2, and it took me
five minutes of Web searching.

Like I said, there are no insurmountable problems. There are always
workarounds for these things, but you've been advised by ignorant
idiots.

I know I say Windoze is crap, but it's nothing like as crap as you've
been led to believe. XP SP2 will let you use the software you want -
PSP, I've just checked.

The thing to do in any case is `Find out how to deal with the problems
that are expected, make a full backup of the hard disc, apply the
update, and if you *DO* have trouble, just restore everything from the
backup and go back to the start.

From what I've heard from these same people is that once you install SP2
you're stuck with it and it doesn't matter whether you've got a backup or
not, it still won't work :o(

Nonsense.

How to go back on the update, following MS instructions:

<http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=875350>

You see the problem? You've been advised by people who don't know what
they're doing.

And if there are any problems with Poser 7 and Win XP SP2, I've not been
able to find a mention of them. I've certainly come across one person
using Poser 7 after upgrading to Win XP SP2 and while he reported
problems, he reported no problems with Poser.

I feel sure you've been badly advised by people who barely know any more
than you do about what they've been doing.

IIRC they had to wipe their machines
completely then reinstall XP then all their software and then the stuff
that they managed to backup before they installed SP2 and I'm just not
that patient unfortunately!

<puzzled> But if you've done a backup of the disc, you just restore the
backup in a single operation. No fiddling about like that is required.

*I* don't know what's what with Windoze at all - not used it in over a
decade - but I bet I could install SP2 on your XP box and give it back
to you with all your software working and all your data intact. I'd be
willing to bet quite a lot of money, actually.

[snip]

For sure there might well be specific problems - well, there
will be fixes for all of them by now, I would imagine, and
it'll be possible to find out about them via the Web.
Honest, get a Mac or not as you see fit, but if you've got XP
give it SP2 no matter what.

I don't use the machine with XP on it anymore, just this one
with Vista and Vista doesn't ask you about installing updates,
it just does it!

Quite - a big problem, that one. MS controls your computer: if
an update causes problems, you don't get any choice but to
suffer the problems.

*nodding* This is the reason I'm not installing SP2!

Yeah, but not installing SP2 causes problems. Find out what the
current state of play is - seriously, and if there are workarounds,
use 'em.

There aren't any that I've heard of so I won't install it... sorry

Mandy, you're a fool to yourself. Really. Look for the workarounds -
if your WinXP computer(s) can see the internet, you *NEED* SP2 to
protect them from hackers. It's for the health of your computer.

You've got me there... I *am* a fool!

Worse: you've taken the advice of fools.

Macs don't do that. Yes, there's automatic finding of software
updates, but I'm pretty sure you can't set it to `full auto'.
Software Update can run regular checks and tell you what's
waiting for you - and then you say `Oh go on just do it' or
`Just download the update and I'll apply it manually' or `Sod
off I'm not interested'.

*nodding* That's what I did on my XP machine - told it to sod
off!

Seriously, reconsider that decision. Take a look at the current
state of play regarding PSP and Poser. I bet the current versions
are perfectly happy with XP SP2 - and if so, install SP2! Really!

From what I can remember they had to uninstall PSP and Poser then put
SP2 on then reinstall PSP and Poser and they lost a lot of stuff
doing it like that so I'd prefer not to.

If you connect your WinXP machine to the internet without SP2, you're
likely to suffer much worse.

Maybe so, but I'm willing to take that risk

But you don't understand what the risks are. Look, I'm having a go at
you out of concern, okay? I'm worried that your computer's going to end
up in a horrible mess due to cyber attacks.

Find out how to do the workarounds which exist and do it - if you
don't want to suffer from cybercrime.

I don't use that machine anymore but a friend does so I'll mention it to
her

You do that.

Umm. Hang on a bit - you're not taking the risk at all if you've not
got the blasted machine any more yourself. So what are we going on
about?

[snip]

FWIW, one should never install any software update straight
away, on anything, ever. Wait until some other mugginses have
tried it, and find out if they had any problems. This applies
to any software update on any computer platform. And it
*seriously* applies to Macs as I have found out. Apple is
usually very good, but sometimes it just cocks up really really
badly. So you need to wait to see if this update is `one of the
normal ones which is fine' or `one of the few dodgy ones which
isn't.

*nodding* SP2 was a dodgy one!

Generally speaking, it's the most important and useful Windoze
update ever released. Ever.

Maybe for lots of people, but the people who I've seen and read
wished they hadn't installed it!

Find out how to get round the problems. There are workarounds. Any
WinXP computer connected to the internet must have SP2 installed or
it's basically wide open to hackers. That isn't opinion: anyone who
knows about WinXP will tell you it's a fact.

There were 2 options - install SP2 and forget about PSP and Poser or
forget about SP2 and keep PSP and Poser. I chose to keep Poser and PSP.

Well, I've just tried to find out about the problems with XP SP2 and
PSP.

Here's the workaround published by MS for the only problem I could find:

<http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?kbid=873176>

Like I said, there *ARE* workarounds.

But there are things like:

<http://forums.cnet.com/5208-12546_102-0.html?forumID=133&threadID=26943
5&messageID=2617296#2617296>

`I have been using Jasc Paint Shop Pro 8 with Windows XP SP2 for two
years and never had any trouble.'

And I've failed to find any mention of problems with Poser and Win XP
SP2.

You've been very badly advised, but for some reason you want to believe
this bad advice from idiots who don't know what they're doing.

For sure your router provides useful protection - but if the `bad
guys' can work past that (oh, this is where it gets horribly
complicated, don't ask), you're dropped straight in the *** without
SP2.

Okey dokes. On my head be it!

<shakes head sadly>

One obvious way to get past router protection is to have a dodgy Web
page. Plenty of Web pages contain programs that your computer
downloads automatically without asking you about it at all. Dodgy Web
pages contain /malicious/ programs that take over your computer and
make it do things you don't know about but are all bad for you.

Yup, that's why I don't go anywhere near those sort of sites!

But you might do. You can't tell. It's very easy for a malicious
programmer to arrange things to make you think you're visiting your bank
or whatever, but actually sneakily and silently re-direct you to a dodgy
site. So you can click on a link that clearly points to what you know
for sure is your bank, you can check that every character in the url is
exactly what it ought to be, and the malicious people can arrange for
you to actually go to a completely different Website while making you
think you're visiting your bank because everything makes it look like
that's what you're doing.

You can do a lot to avoid the obvious problems, but the malicious people
are several steps ahead of you in this game.

[snip]

You need to get in touch with some people who know what they're doing,
find out how to avoid the problems that occur, and install SP2 to
protect your WinXP computer(s) from hacker attack.

I'd still prefer not to. Sorry.

You'd prefer not to because you've decided to believe bad advice given
to you by people who don't know what they're doing as far as I can tell
from the research I've just done. is this sensible of you?

Tell you what: you point me at a link explaining the problems with PSP
and Poser combined with XP SP2, and I'll find the workarounds for you.

How about that?

Come on - what have you got to lose? I'm willing to do all the `looking
up of technical details' for you and you'll be under no obligation at
all to do anything at all with what I find.

That is, assuming you've actually got an XP box at home yourself - you
said you've given it to a friend?

Never mind any problems it might cause - it's the rock solid update
that all XP users really *NEED*, so if you do find out about
problems, you should find out how to get round them and install
SP2. So investigate! Find out about the current state of play with
Poser and PSP - I bet the current versions work perfectly happily
with XP SP2.

The bods who all had trouble were all using the same versions as me
and I'd rather not risk it

If your WinXP machine is connected to the internet, it is wide open to
hackers and all the cybercriminal attacks you can think of unless it
has SP2 installed - not an opinion, a fact. Find out how to get round
the problems and get SP2 installed - if you don't want to have hackers
doing bad things to your computer.

I'd still prefer not to. Sorry.

`Sorry' she says. ARGH!

Don't say `sorry', say `I'm a lunatic who likes taking bad advice to
cause themselves trouble', Yes, that's screaming frustration you're
detecting. Except that you say you don't actually have the XP machine
any more. What's going on?

And I'm ranting on like that because I happen to give a ***, okay?

Rowland.

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