Re: Xnews

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote in
news:1i4aaup.vteolkjnwggN%real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:
Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:
Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:
Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell)
wrote:
Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland McDonnell)
wrote:
Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland
McDonnell) wrote:
Mandy <mandy2uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Rowland
McDonnell) wrote:
[snip]

No, I need a course that I'm interested in and that I can join, and
I need support from the staff.


What sort of things are you interested in?

Eh? I've no idea what you mean.

You said that you needed a course that you were interested in so I'm just
wondering what you are interested so that I can maybe find something for
you :o)

One problem is that at the moment, I have one interest: getting the help
I need to get well. I have no other interests at all, not really. I
lost interest in anything but getting the help I need when I discovered
I was unable to take anything through to a successful completion without
help - which is generally unavailable.

But even if that weren't the case, there are no `sorts of things' that
I've ever been interested in. Things, yes; but not sets of things - at
least, not so classified in my head, I don't think. Hard to tell, now I
think about it.

I can't help with that as I've only
studied at a distance since I became psychotic :o( Sorry :o(

That makes me rather annoyed, that does. You've been done badly
by, you have.

I'm just too much of a dunce to go to a RL Uni... I got 1 C at
GCSE level and the rest were Ds and Es!

Poor education is utterly unrelated to your brain's potential. Nor
is it necessarily a barrier to going to a real university - the ex
polys are in many cases very good at easing those without formal
qualifications into degrees, and surprisingly large numbers of such
entrants go on to get very good degrees indeed, and then go on to
postgrad work in more cases than you might think.

It's part of what my wife does for a living.

Oh right! I've always been told that I was too thick to even do a
diploma course at college!

Who said that?

My father and brother, bullies, friends and tutors

The tutors were incompetent and they weren't your friends.

I have today, for example, managed to remove the silencers
and rear shock absorber from my bike. It's taken me about
a year to get round to doing that. It was less than two
hours actual work on my part (with Rebecca doing the
cleaning and suchlike beforehand, which took just as
long). The shock needs to go back to the firm that made
it: it has a manufacturing fault. The silencers need
replacing and sending back because they rusted away in no
time at all.

You sound like you know what you're doing!

In excruciating detail, yes.

That's something to be proud of then! :o)

Proud of having a huge amount of technical knowledge which I
can't apply or even pass on? What's there to be proud of in
that?

You should be proud that you know more about the workings of a
motorbike than a lot of people!

<puzzled> I see nothing to be proud of in that.

I do! You know more about the workings of a motorbike than me and a
lot of others so that knowledge should make you proud!

But why?

Because you don't need to pay a mechanic to do things that you are
capable of doing, because you have taken the time and trouble to learn
how to do it and because you know where to go to get the bits to make
your bike work again!

Umm... I will NOT pay a mechanic to work on my bike if at all possible,
because I value my skin.

The motorcycling magazine Ride did a test of professional servicing for
motorcycles. They sent a specially prepared motorcycle (with marked up
parts so they could tell if, e.g., the spark plugs had been changed,
carefully introduced faults that needed fixing, and so on) to various
`big name' motorcycle servicing outfits.

They asked for a major service to prepare the bike for an MOT.

In every case, the bike came back an MOT failure.

In every case, the firm charged for work not done and parts not fitted.

In about half the cases, the professional mechanics had introduced new
faults to the bike.

One of the worst offenders, when asked about their dismal performance,
soundly praised its mechanics (the ones who had defrauded the customer,
and returned a bike more dangerous than when it went to the shop), and
explained that what you got was a result of a very competetive market.

So you see, only suicidal motorcyclists pay for servicing. Any sensible
motorcyclist does his own - it's what was standard when I started
riding. We all did our own servicing. Nothing special.

[snip]

It sounds like the tutors who did this to you need to have a few
words said to them by their bosses!

As I explained, the bosses backed them up completely.

They're nuts then! :o(

Yes, but so what?

So it's not very fair on the students :o(

Only to me - and since I was the `service user' rather than `mental
health professional' on the course, they decided I was just a
troublesome looney who should be thrown out.

[snip]

Could you see if they were thinking of running any courses
there that you could go to?

Yes, I've done that. That's why I said there is nothing
there of the remotest interest to me. Did you think I was
saying that purely at random, or what?

No, I thought you meant there were no courses that they were
running right now that interested you... I didn't realise you'd
already asked... sorry!

There is no possibility of a place like that ever running any
course I might be interested in - they work on a very
patronising basis, assuming that their clients are a certain
kind of person with very poor abilities and no ambition.

Like me then?

I know very little about you.

There isn't a lot to know!

You're a 30 year old human being, yes? That's a lot to know.

Nope I'm not 30 for another month <grin>

Lucky you.

I've got 4 websites at
http://www.mandysdepression.com/ and http://www.mandysworld.com/ and
http://www.geocities.com/mandystwins/ and http://beginnerpagan.com/
which is all there is to know about me! :o)

Not remotely all. Almost nothing, I'd say.

What do you want to know and I'll tell you :o)

Eh? That's not how to get to know someone. I'd have to spend time with
you and learn about you as a person. And that's impossible.

I have investigated very thoroughly - actually asked 'em about
running the sort of thing I'd be interested in, and got
reactions ranging from blank stares to giggles (because the idea
was so laughable, apparently).

They should have treated you with more respect!

But I've got mental health problems. That means you get no respect
from anyone who works with those who have mental health problems.

Blimey! They need better training then!

No, they need to have a aptitude for the job, to have better
*assessments* that exclude the unsuitable from medical work entirely,
and to work in an environment which encourages respect for the
patients rather than the one we've got.

They should come up with some sort of list where only those who have an
aptitude for the job can get on it!

You can't do that with the application process - you can only do that by
on the job assessment as far as I can tell. `Can they do it'? If no,
do they respond to extra training? If no, sack 'em.

It's a big mistake to think that all you have to do is push someone
through a training programme and all will be well. That only works if
the person has an aptitude for whatever it is, and if the assessment
of the effect of the training is adequate, and there is a significant
failure rate which results in some at least of the failures being
booted out of the field because they shouldn't be in it.

It sounds like the NHS needs a good shake up and only those who genuinely
want to help settle there!

But that's not government policy, is it?

[snip]

Er, not readily, and how could that help? Have you any idea
what happens when two people who are as ill and disabled as
her and me try to spend time together?

I used to meet up with Fergus on a Sunday for a chat so yes, I
do have an idea :o)

It's perfectly obvious you aren't in anything like the sort of
state I'm in and that you have no idea what sort of state I'm in
at all.

I can tell that from the suggestions you make and the questions
you ask.

I'm not now, no, but I was for several years! :o(

You show no signs of understanding how disabled I am - you keep
banging on about things that you think I can do, but I'm far too
disabled to be able to do what you suggest in almost all cases.
That's the main reason I think you've not got the point.

I think I've got it now :o(

It's not the idea I get from reading your reply to me, not the idea at
all.

Oh right! Sorry! :o(

We both need support, but we can't provide much to each
other.

Maybe look to get something different than support from each
other?

All avenues of support are closed to us: the only thing I could
do to help my wife is kill myself.

That wouldn't help me or anyone else though!

So?

So you want me to add your name to the list of people I've already
lost?

What are you on about? My life has been discarded. I am lost -
utterly lost, without a hope.

Right now, yes, but not necessarily in the future! :o)

Yes, that's why I'm still alive. But there is good reason to think that
there is nothing but pain and misery ahead of me without any respite
until I die.

If I kill myself, it's my business, not anyone else's.

That's right, but what about the people you leave behind?

Why should I give a *** about those who have caused my suffering? Why
should I give a *** about those who did nothing to help me? Why should
I give a *** about someone suffering a minor emotional problem that any
human being should have learnt how to cope with in childhood?

My wife has done her best. I give a damn about her - everyone else can
go hang.

You've not really addressed my question: if the pain is too much to
bear, what right does anyone have to refuse suicide to anyone else? How
can it be decent to say that someone's got to suffer unbearable pain and
unending misery for decades, just so the people who know that person
don't have to make the minor emotional adjustment that comes from a
death to someone you know?

Answer that - if you can. If you can't, stop suggesting that anyone who
wants to kill themself should give any emotional consideration to
anyone.

I find it a particularly despicable suggestion, as it happens.

Put it another way: do you want to add my name to the list of people
who have suffered decades of unbearable torment that makes their lives
pure hell, giving them no reason at all to live because all they have
in their lives is unbearable pain and nothing else.

Is that what you want for me? Are you so cruel as to wish that
suffering on me?

No, I just want you to keep breathing until your life improves! :o)

If my life ends when I am 90 years old and it's just got worse but I've
stayed alive at your urging, how would you feel about having caused me
to suffer all those decades of pain and misery?

How could you justify it to yourself? I don't see that anyone with a
conscience could possibly justify having caused someone that much
suffering.

I've lost a lot of people
to suicide and I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone! :o(

But you would wish the pain I suffer on me - is that it? It's not
okay to save myself pain, is that what you're saying? The suffering
of those who knew me is somehow more worthy of respect than my
suffering?
Is that it?


Nope, things can and do get better if you keep breathing (I'm living
proof of that) but if you die then there is no hope of things
improving!

But I know that things often get worse if you keep breathing. You
cannot state with honesty and certainty that things will get better.
There is good reason to think that they'll just get worse until I die
horribly.

2.5 years ago I couldn't no, but I can now! :o)

2.5 years ago I could see no possibility of getting help. I see less
chance now.

Just because you got lucky doesn't mean I will. The signs are that I
won't get lucky - after all, you got lucky as a young women. 40 year
old men tend to get treated very badly by society. Young women tend
to get treated very well.

There's only 10 years age difference between us so if you say I'm a young
woman then you must be a young man! :o)

I was described as a `young man' by the medics well into my 30s. I
found this tendency most annoying.

I really loathe that attitude. For starters, death is a part of
life: we all have known people who have died, have we not?
Learning how to deal with that is part of living. It's just a
normal part of normal life that every normal person has to cope
with.

I've lost 1 person for every year of my life so far :o(

That's a bit more than average, isn't it?

Most of the deaths have either been through AIDs or suicide. If you take
those 2 groups out then I've lost 9 people

Righto.

The `pain' of someone dying on you is not to be compared to the
pain that drives someone to suicide - but you are suggesting
someone who needs to kill themselves to escape unbearable
ssuffering hould continue to suffer unbearable pain just to spare a
few other people a brief period of being slightly upset in a way
that is a completely normal part of living?

If you died I would be more than slightly upset! :o(

<shrug> If I stayed alive, I would be more than slightly upset. But
of course that doesn't matter, does it?

Of course it does!

But all you've said you care about is your own feelings - you tell me
I've got to stay alive because you'd be upset if I died. I think that's
heartless and selfish of you.

If those people who knew a suicidal person were so concerned with
them, why the /***/ didn't they help that person deal with life?
Why did they fail to help them live, help them escape the pain some
way other than suicide? They failed to do so - they have no claim
on that person's life. They have no right to demand that someone
should suffer years of unbearable torment just to save themselves
being a bit upset for a short while.

I don't know about others but the grief I feel for all those I've
lost makes me more than a bit upset! :o(

Better learn to live with it, then. You've got no business trying to
persuade someone to not kill themselves to save yourself a bit of
personal grief. That's just horribly selfish, that is.

I guess I'm really selfish then because I want there to be a cure for
AIDs and better support for those who are suicidal!

<annoyed> That's not selfish - that's decent and humane. But in this
world where these things are not available, we have to live with what
we've got and if what you've got is hell on Earth with no chance of a
reprieve, why not kill yourself?

[snip]

You have no idea, I can assure you. I need to see a doctor. I
have no access. Can you not see that your position is radically
different to mine?

Can you call NHS Direct and see if they can help?

`See your GP', `Contact your PCT', `Use the complaints procedure'.
Done all that - blanks.

Can you explain that to NHS Direct and see what they say?

As I've just told you:

`See your GP', `Contact your PCT', `Use the complaints procedure'.

What part of that do you not understand? I can tell them about all the
problems that make their suggestios useless or impossible, and they just
ignore me and repeat their suggestions.

[snip]

I am very bad in social situations. I am terrified of
almost everyone. I've never had many friends. I don't
have the knack. I cannot go out and meet people and make
new friends. I do not know how. I do not know how to hold
a casual conversation with someone. I'm terrified of
everything.

Maybe go to the pub after work one day and see if there is
anyone there on their own? If there is you could start
talking to them and take it from there?

<stunned> I cannot understand how you could possibly make
such a suggestion. I repeat: I do not know how to hold a
casual conversation with someone.

OK, you go up to this person that is on their own and you say
"hi, I'm Rowland. Are you waiting for anyone or is it OK if we
chat for a while?"

Absolutely not. That's the behaviour of a weirdo. No way am I
doing that. If I were to try it, I'd end up so terrified and
embarrassed I'd have to run away (and I do mean *run*)
immediately - I'd probably be in tears of humilation and I'd
find it hard to not find somewhere to hide and curl up into a
small sobbing ball somewhere, but I'd have to do it to avoid
being locked up by the authorities, wouldn't I?

I guess I'm a weirdo then 'cos that's what I would do! :o)

Yes, but that's because you're a woman, not a bloke. There's no
point in telling a bloke to talk as a woman does, unless that bloke
wants to learn how to be a `queen' in the fashion of G. Norton.

Could some of the blokes in the group step in and help me out here
please?

I doubt they're reading this; and in any case, I shouldn't think many
of them have any better ideas than me.

I hope they *are* reading 'cos I haven't got a clue how a bloke talks
differently to a woman! :o)

Nor me. I've paid rather more attention to what women say than men.

If they say they are waiting for someone say "OK... bye" and
walk off but if they say they are on their own say "mind if I
sit down so we can chat for a while?" if they say that they do
mind say "OK... bye!" and if they say that they don't mind,
take a seat and ask their name, what their hobbies are, what
brought them to the pub that day, what their plans are for the
rest of the day/evening/week/weekend

But I have no interest at all in anything like that, nor have I
any idea why anyone would be interested in anything like that,
nor do I have any idea how I might be able to speak on such
subjects.

You don't *have* to have any interest...

Eh? But if I have no interest, I've nothing to say.

How about faking an interest until you get to know more about them?

<puzzled> Eh? What? What *are* you on about? Why would I want to
lie to someone I don't care about in order to find out details about
them I have no interest in? I'm not a private detective, you know.

I can only tell you what I would do... maybe try different things on
different people?

Mandy, just drop it. You've not got a clue. You keep trying to get me
to engage in a process which *does not work*. I've told you repeatedly,
but you keep returning to the same idea from a different angle.

I cannot learn how to socialise simply by practise. It's what I tried
to do and it's what I have failed at. I have tried every approach that
you can imagine, and then some. Utter and complete failure in every
case, with no idea how to do any better and no-one willing to help me
learn.

I have been cast out by society. I think it happened to me when I was
very young, actually - I was always excluded from stuff at school, for
example, whether it was games in the playground or stuff that the school
was doing. I don't know why. I think a lot of people just didn't like
me for some reason; certainly many teachers clearly loathed me.

that will come the more you talk
and find things in common :o)

That is not my experience. I find that I have nothing to talk
about with most people.

Maybe talk about the things that interest you and take it from there?

What? My only real interest at the moment is getting help from the
NHS so that I can live. Since there is absolutely nothing I can do in
that line, it's all a bit pointless.

Explain that to the person and see if they've got any ideas of other
things you could try?

So you think I should approach a total stranger, explain that I'm a
loony who's been banned from accessing the NHS, and then ask them to
solve my problems for me? They'd run off or call for the police,
wouldn't they?

I've no idea what you're on about in any case. Why would I want to
engage someone in idle chatter about something that person has no
interest in, and that I have no interest in discussing with someone
who had no interest in, and who also knows and cares almost nothing
about it? And when I have no interest in talking to someone anyway?

I'm trying to get you to introduce yourself to local people so that you
can start making friends :o)

Give it up. I cannot do so. I've been trying to explain that to you
but for some reason you've failed to listen.

You seem to be trying to persuade me to engage in processes that I
have no interest in, and for no purpose whatsoever - except perhaps to
cause me to suffer more humilation and to make me less inclined to
leave the house.

That isn't my intention, honestly! :o) I'm just trying to get you to
meet people in your area to try and make friends with them :o)

Please stop it because I find it extremely upsetting, okay?

I cannot do what you suggest. I have no idea why anyone would want to.
I have no desire to be capable of doing what you suggest. I don't want
to do it. I don't want to talk to random strangers in the pub. I would
have nothing to say. I could not make friends that way since I've no
idea how to do anything like that and - look, just listen will you?

Everything you have been suggesting is not possible for me.

I cannot do it.

So please please please stop upsetting me with your stupid ideas.
You're just reminding me of a whole side of life that is barred to me.
I'd love to be able to just talk to people in a pub - but I can't.

No-one you'd meet in a pub outside of a university town would have any
interest in talking to me in any case.

I don't know how to talk to people. I don't know how to approach
people. I know nothing about casual conversation. Your idea that I'll
just pick it up if I dive in according to your instructions is idiotic:
it never works like that. It's what my parents did to me when I was
young, and I utterly failed to learn how to socialise with anyone. So
my parents took to complaining about me because of that - so I got more
reclusive and sullen and withdrawn, so they complained more violently,

And you think that with an upbringing like that, I can just get the hang
of it using the methods you suggest? My god!

I've told you I can't - but still you keep banging on on the same lines.
Give it up!

I've told you that I've tried everything you've suggested in the past
and it's just left me mistrustful and traumatised - and yet you suggest
I try it again!

Forget it - drop it - stop upsetting me!

[snip]

What you have suggested is that I go into a pub, and engage in a
process that would inevitably cause me to flee from the place at
high speed in mortal terror and suicidal embarrassment, unable
to show my face in the area again and unable to face ever seeing
certain people ever again.

I'm sorry you feel that way about my suggestion...

I''m giving you a reliable prediction, not my `feelings' on the
subject. Please try to understand.

I'm trying and slowly getting there :o)

Try harder.

What do you feel that I'm not understanding? :o/

Anything much, as it happens.

<snip>

and just talk to
them like you talk to us lot here :o)

But I cannot do that. I cannot speak as I write. I don't know
why you think I can. I can write anything. I find it nearly
impossible to engage in conversations with people.

Maybe try it just for one message and see what happens?

Eh? What do you mean?


Start a new thread (or whatever they are called) and type out exactly
what you would say to someone (me for example) if you met them at the
pub
:o)

I would say nothing if I ran into a random person in a pub. Haven't
you got that yet? I just don't walk up to people and start talking to
them unless I have a particular need to talk to them for functional
reasons.

What would you say to me if you met me in a pub?

What circumstances?

I have no interest in `idle conversation'. I was bullied by my mother
to engage in small talk to entertain her friends when they came to
visit and she was in the kitchen. God knows what they thought,
because all I ever did was sit there in silence because I have no
small talk - which I explained to my mother, but of course she ignored
the problem and just shouted at me to get on with it.


That doesn't sound very supportive!

Well, no, but that's parents for you.

Maybe that is why you have trouble
with small talk now? :o)

I have no interest in small talk in any case. I've watched people do it
and never understood the point. My mind doesn't work the way required
to engage in small talk, so I have concluded.

[snip]

All that is lies: that is not how it works. What happens is that
repeated exposure to social situations that I could not handle caused
me to become less able to cope with social situations, caused me to
become more of a social outcast, less capable of dealing with people,
and so on. The process you suggest will allow me to learn is the
exact same process that turned me from `Someone who might have got the
hang of it if they'd had a bit of guidance' to `Someone who's been so
badly traumatised by decades of horrific social disasters that he
hardly dares leave the house any more and tries to avoid talking to
anyone if at all possible'.

Just a thought, but what are you like with talking to people on the
phone? Is that easier or just as hard?

No comparison possible.

So please stop coming out with your ill-informed suggestions: they are
nothing but harmful.

Sorry :o(

But you carried on doing it! I've got to the end - you've just been
repeating stupid ideas that I've told you don't work and I've found it
extremely upsetting.

My brothers have been less crap than me. Littlest bro gets on fine
with everyone; middle bro's known to be a bit odd, but seems to be
able to cope okay despite that. I've tried and failed to learn via
them in many ways, too.

Can you arrange a meet near you so that you can start learning how to
talk to people who don't know you?

Your suggestion of me going to a meet cannot possibly help me learn
how to talk to people. I thought I'd made that perfectly clear. I've
no idea why you think it'd do anything but cause me extreme distress -
panic, humiliation, and so on.

Not necessarily talk (unless you wanted to) but see what other people do
in social situations and try and learn from it then at the next meet you
could ask a question or answer a question or whatever then at the next
meet you could open up a bit more... how about something like that?

<sigh> Stop it with these suggestions. They are all utterly useless
for the same reason in every case. You keep suggesting ideas that I've
told you are harmful to me - that's another one.

I can learn nothing using the methods you suggest. I know this because
I have tried them and they have been so harmful that they largely
destroyed me as a functioning human being.

I've repeatedly explained that, but still you keep returning to the same
suggestions.

I will not put myself through that purely harmful experience and I'd
thank you to not suggest it again.

Okey dokes, ignore my last bit then :o)

Please stop all your suggestions on things I might do to learn to
socailise. What I need is support and guidance: nothing you've said has
acknowledged that's what I need, and you've just kept banging on about
your idea that I do know what to do and just need to get some practice
in.

That is wrong.

I have tried getting the practice in, but it's always ended in
humiliation for me. I've never learnt anything at all about how to
socialise by putting in practice, except the following: I haven't a clue
how to socialise, or meet people, or strike up conversations with
people, or exchange small talk.

I have tried to learn these things and I have failed. I cannot learn on
my own. I need support and guidance.

Do you understand yet?

I have tried to explain that after 40 years of trying to figure out
how to talk to people, I've got nowhere. That means you suggestion
above cannot work - I've already tried that kind of thing, as I've
explained, and never figured out how to do it. I need support,
guidance, and so on - that has never been available to me.


Start with people you know at meets and take things slowly (at your own
pace) from there?

Mandy, your suggestions are all useless, harmful, and grotesquely
ill-informed and it's very very upsetting to read yet another stupid
idea the same as the last one which I've already told you multiple times
is a complete non-starter.

I cannot learn anything useful in the ways you suggest. I need support
and guidance, and that is absent from your suggestions.


[snip]

`Take it from there' she says. Well, I have no idea how to
start a conversation with someone out of the blue,

You start by saying "Hi, I'm Rowland. Are you waiting for
someone or is it OK if I sit down"

But I don't start by saying that; it's entirely `not me' at all.
I'd feel terrified saying that. I /cannot/ do so. It'd terrify
me - why you think it'd help me to start out with doing
something really odd, I cannot imagine.

How would you introduce yourself? :o)

I wouldn't do so. As I said, I have no idea how to engage anyone
in casual conversation: I simply haven't a clue. Never have had,
never been able to work it out, and I've tried very hard in all
sorts of ways.

OK, say I was coming to meet you and I don't have a clue what you
look like, how would you introduce yourself to me?

Eh? Sorry, I don't understand. We don't need introducing as such
because we've already `met' on-line, haven't we?

But we haven't met in person so I wouldn't know who you were unless you
introduced yourself to me :o)

Why not? It'd be easy enough to spot me - the bike boots etc., would be
a slight hint. I'm pretty sure that if I arranged to meet you in a pub
at a particular time, I'd spot you without an introduction or any need
for you to describe yourself in advance.

[snip]

nor have I any idea how to
continue such a conversation once started,

You ask the other person about themselves, their family,
hobbies, interests, if they have access to the internet, if
they are interested in motorbikes, if they have a job, if
they've got a job what is their typical day like, if they don't
have a job what their aims are... get them talking about
themselves :o)

Well, no. I don't do that. I don't know how to do that and I
have no interest in doing anything like that.

Oh right :o(

<shrug> It just seems utterly pointless and empty. Why speak to
someone you don't know on subjects you have no interest in?

So that you can start to get to know them and find out things you
have in common?

What on Earth would I want to do that for? Pointless activity as far
as I can tell. In any case, I don't have anything to speak of in
common with most people on Merseyside - aside from, possibly, being
the same species. There seem to be no overlap between their lives and
mine - no points of contact at all.

So that you can start making friends?

But as I've explained, I can't do it the ways you suggest. I need
support and guidance and these are absent from your suggestions.

I need to learn to trust people again before I can have any friends.
You ignore that point.

You also ignore the point that I cannot `just chat to people about
stuff', and that I have no interest in doing so. Nor do I get your
point about talking to someone to find the things you've got in common -
I've never had any interest in that, either. What's the point? I don't
get it. I can't do it in any case.

What you suggest is not something that would permit me to make friends
even if I had got the hang of it. For someone to be a friend, I would
need to trust them, and I've lost faith in humanity and trust almost
no-one now.

I've had many experiences of being betrayed very badly by so-called
friends. And I've always ended up scared and humiliated in social
situations where I've had to talk to strangers. Always! I need someone
to teach me the rules. I've never been able to work them out for myself
and I've tried for decades using all your ideas and then some - please
pay attention to me, Mandy: your ideas are, all of them so far, worse
than useless because they are proven to be harmful.

It's more the woman's approach, in any case - it's now how
blokes talk to each other, it's how a woman talks to a man. It
would be deeply strange for me to do that, and I'd probably be
mistaken for a poof on the pull (he said, reverting to the
rather efficient lingo of his youth).

Maybe the men in the group can help me out here then? How do you
(men) introduce yourselves to someone you don't know?

I can't see any point in trying to find out how I might do that,
because I can't think why I'd want to just walk up to a stranger at
random and start talking to them.

So that you can make friends in your area?

But I can't. `Friends'? How could I ever make a friend? I used to
know people I thought of as friends. Almost all of them have
demonstrated that they're not; most of the rest have emigrated, so I
never found out if they were or not. I trust no-one any more.

You start making friends by one person going up to another and
introducing themselves then as you get to know them more you will find
things you have in common :o)

I have never done that. Nor do I see how it could enable me to learn
how to talk to someone - as I've explained, I need support and guidance,
and your suggestion involves none of that.

What you're suggesting is that I put myself in a degrading social
situation that will leave me feeling worthless, humiliated, and suicidal
- generally more disabled at the end of the day.

I don't see anything about your suggestion that has anything to do with
making friends or learning anything about anything: it's all about
subjecting me to humiliation and despair.

I do not want to engage with people in a fashion that results in the
`friends' label turning up because I've done that and been betrayed.

Not everyone is like that though!

So what? I've never seen any sign of people being particular reliable
or trustworthy in general. How can one tell the difference between the
stinkers and the decent folk? I know of no method of doing so, and
there certainly are an awful lot of stinkers in the world.

If they were there would be a lot of
single people around who didn't have friends!

There are a lot of single people around with no friends.

nor how to end a
conversation.

Say something like "it's been nice talking to you, thank you
for letting me get to know you but I've got to go now... bye!"

I can't do that. I've no idea how you do the talking to people
thing, but the methods you've outlined are simply not something
that I could possibly do.

What would you say instead if you spotted someone sitting on their
own?
:o)

Nothing. What do you think I should say?

I think you should go up to them, introduce yourself and ask if they
are waiting for anyone... I'm not a bloke though so that may not be
what you (or any bloke) would do :o)

That's definitely not acceptable behaviour for a `normal' bloke. It's
okay for women to do that sort of thing, but not men. I thought I'd
already explained that?

So what is a manly way of doing it? :o)

How the hell should I know? I've spent nearly 40 years trying to figure
that one out, and so far I have learnt absolutely nothing on the subject
because I've never had any support or guidance to help me do so.

[snip]

Eh? I don't understand what you mean. I am always confident in my
opinions, and when my head's on straight, I can always write. That
does not confer any ability to talk to people, does it? Nor does
it help with the terror I experience outside the house, or when
preparing to *do* something. For sure I can write crap like this,
but I can't apply myself to a task and complete it successfully.

Talk to strangers like you talk to the peeps on here...

I do not *TALK* here: I write. I cannot *TALK* as I *WRITE*. I have
explained this before. The processes are entirely different.

I write as I talk (don't I Fergus??) so it *is* possible :o)

No you don't and no it's not. The processes are entirely different. I
thought I'd explained?

I can make a post here and if I get no response, it's not
embarrassing. I can make a post here and it takes a fairly long time
to get a response, and I can consider my reply at my leisure and get
my thoughts sorted out in my own time. If I get an unexpected
response, I can take my time thinking of how to deal with it - and if
I can't, I can just ignore the matter without any trouble at all. And
I can enter and leave at will without having to engage in some complex
social interactions that I do not understand.

If you don't get a RL response you can change the subject and talk about
something else just like you would on a newsgroup :o)

But I cannot do that in speech. That's why I said what I said.

Why are you insisting that you know me better than I do?

Please drop this matter. I find it extremely distressing.

In live social interactions, I can't do any of that, so I just panic
and lose my mind when talking to people a lot of the time because
something always happens that leaves me floundering and utterly lost
and bewildered and scared and not understanding and in any case, I
usually find that I just *can't* talk to most people because there
simply aren't any points of contact between us.

That's why I keep suggesting going to meets...

Never again.

you already know the words
of the people there and you already have something in common (you all
have mental health problems) so just take it from there...

No. Not after the last few upsd meets I went to, and certainly not with
the current upsd crowd. There is no way I'd put myself into that sort
of peril.

Nor do I get your point - what am I supposed to get from attending a
upsd meet? I've been to quite a few. Helped me learn how to socialise
how much exactly? Not in the slightest. So you see your suggestion has
already proven useless.

if you're
still nervous about it take some jokes with you or something like that?

Drop it. You're clueless. Not one of your suggestions has done
anything to address the problems i face in learning to socialise. All
you are doing is suggesting that I repeat things which have been proven
to fail in the past - and I've told you that they're proven failures
(meaning that I have tried every idea you've come up with so far, pretty
much), your ideas, but still you keep banging on about them.

Please stop it. I find it very upsetting.

that's what I do
and it's gone OK so far :o)

It's what I've tried, and it's failed miserably all my life, and is
one of the reasons I'm in the bad state I'm in now.

Maybe start another thread just for the blokes here at UPSD and ask for
their advice?

What's the point? I don't see any way in which I could learn anything
from hearing what they say.

I have listened to what people say, you know, and I don't understand the
rules of social interaction as a result of so listening. I can't learn
how to socialise by listening to what others say, or by throwing myself
into the deep end, or having people tell me what lines they use to open
certain conversations.

So please stop coming up with these stupid ideas. If you'd paid any
attention to me, you'd understand that your ideas were utterly useless
and obviously so - but you've not, have you?

Confidence is not an issue here. What the problem is is lack of
ability.

You need confidence in your ability :o)

But I have no competence in the fields under discussion. My ability
is non-existent.


No it's not... you talk here on UPSD to people so that shows that you
have the ability, you just don't have confidence IRL! :o)

It shows nothing of the sort. Writing is not talking: the processes are
entirely different. Why do you not accept what I say?

I've told you that I cannot talk as I write. I've explained what little
I know about the differences in process - but you've just ignored me and
asserted your worldview.

I don't like that.

<snip>

you're married right? That should be a
confidence booster in itself! :o)

Eh? Does not compute at all.

You must have done something right to talk to your wife, get to
know her, get into a relationship with her, marry her and stay
with her!
:o)

What I got right was being nice, I think.

There you go! Now take that niceness to the pub and use it to help you to
make friends!

But as I've said dozens, if not scores of times (and been ignored by you
on every occasion), I cannot do that.

I met her because she
moved into a student house that I used to live in and contained
people who visited the student house I moved to - so Rebecca turned
up occasionally. She probably spoke to me before I spoke to her;
and I expect we were introduced to each other as well.


Maybe take Rebecca to the pub with you to help bring the confidence back
if it slips?

But I have repeatedly explained that I have never had any confidence
regarding that sort of thing.

I really cannot imagine what you were thinking when you wrote the above.

I've never been able to approach strangers. Never known how.

Maybe one of the blokes reading this can let you know what to do :o)

I doubt that there are any.

Start another thread asking for their advice :o)

No. No point. The way most other people talk is not something I can
use. Most people seem to approach every aspect of life in a way that's
radically different to me - so radically different that I often end up
incapable of communicating with `ordinary people' who don't have a
proper education (i.e., almost everyone).

[snip]

Did you do anything differently that time?

Of course - I wrote a letter appropriate for each complaint, so
each complaint was different because I was complaining about
something different each time.

Oh right! I was just wondering if maybe you'd done something
differently other than writing a letter :o)

<puzzled> But there is no other way of making formal complaints to
the NHS.

You might have mentioned in passing to one of the doctors how peed off
you were or something like that... just something unofficial before you
made the complaint?

Oh yes, I've done that - you get hostility and threats if you do that.

[snip]

There is no reason to think that just because your life has turned
around, that mine will to.

You sound like me before I was hospitalised!

I was a lot more optimistic and capable and completely untraumatised
before I was hospitalised. This is the state they left me in, the
bastards. And then refused to provide me with any further NHS medical
care at all, the evil scum that they are.

Imprisonment in hospital is one of the vilest punishments in this
country - and it's entirely extra judicial.

There *is* an end to the
pain that isn't death, it can sometimes take a while to get there but it
*is* possible! :o)

The best years of my life have been discarded, and so have I. There is
no sign that it's possible for me to get the help I need.

Rowland.


I'm going downstairs now to wait for a pizza to be delivered so I'll talk
to you tomorrow :o)

Umm. Does not compute.

Rowland.

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