Re: Quality of life in the UK


"Lisa Hafey" <lisa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:43dbba3a$0$23284$db0fefd9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> A house of similar quality 10 miles south of the
> >> centre of Sydney (where we were previously renting) sells on average
> >> $600K - yes, that's average price, ie. roughly £240K.
> >
> > That's about the same as London, see:
> >
> > http://www.nationwide.co.uk/hpi/historical/Q405London.pdf
> >
> > Also I'd wager the average house in Sydney is bigger that the average house in
> > London?
>
> Firstly, remember I said, a house that's ten miles from the centre of
> Sydney? Of similar quality? I think if you're talking average size,
> you'd be very surprised about the similarities. Most houses in Sydney
> at least are of what we'd call the "bungalow" variety over here. So, if
> you were able to put all on the one level the houses you buy here, you'd
> see that you're getting the same sort of deal. And the house we bought
> here certainly wasn't highly priced - as I said, it's ex-Local
> Authority. There's others around in the same area for cheaper than
> that. I think you have to get the idea out of your head that life is
> all Home and Away in Sydney...for one thing, there's no glut of
> homeless, abandoned, foster children around the Palm Beach area (where
> H&A is set). It also rains a lot more and for longer!

I have to admit I know very little about Sydney - I've only been there for 3 days. I
spent quite a bit of time in Queensland, and did really like it there. I applied for
a job there a few years ago but didn't get it. I've never been to Perth but know
several people who live/have lived there and they love it.

> >> If we went
> >> further south or further west, quality of life, and also quality of
> >> housing decreases. Notable exceptions are the "rich-man's paradise"
> >> kind of places in the Sutherland shire, think Sylvania Waters, which
> >> have an average price of $1 million or thereabouts. The Western Suburbs
> >> has affordable housing, but unless you work in Parramatta or elsewhere
> >> in the west, it's going to take you 2 hours commuting each way.
> >
> > There are many people who commute ridiculous distances into London - some from
places
> > like Yorkshire and South Wales!
>
> That may well be, but they're silly aren't they! Remember we were
> talking about quality of life!

Yes indeed - but the point is they commute in because they either don't want/can't
afford to live in London. Pretty daft perhaps not to get a job locally - but perhaps
they can't find one in their area of expertise.

> >> Perth is a whole world away from Sydney in terms of cost of living, as
> >> well as distance.
> >
> > As are many parts of the UK, compared to London (OK the distances are much
smaller,
> > but the cost of living is much lower outside London).
>
> Okay, but your comments are based on what you know of Perth, or rather,
> what your friends have told you of Perth.

Plus I lived in Queensland for 6 months, and travelled a fair amount around
(practically everywhere except WA).

> Outside Sydney, yes, the cost
> of living is dramatically different, but then again, so are the income
> levels, which I gather is the same with London and outside London.

The income levels are lower outside London - but not vastly lower. Most big
companies only pay a London allowance of around £3000, perhaps a bit over 10% of
salary, which usually comes nowhere near reflecting the higher cost of living. There
are some very high paying jobs in London, but for "average" jobs the pay isn't that
much higher.

> It
> still costs a lot more to live in Australia than the holiday ads and
> those "A Place in the Sun" shows would like you to think. Everyone I
> know who's travelled here from Australia for a holiday has slagged off
> how expensive it is - but then they are spending money that is worth 2/5
> of the pound.

I found Australia generally cheap.

> > Melbourne is more like Sydney
> >> than Perth, but again, it has the feel of a big country town rather than
> >> a state capital.
> >
> > It's also got UK-like weather, which would put me off!
> >
> > I'd like to live in Queensland, with a second home somewhere else like Perth for
the
> > rainy season...
>
> Yes, and I suspect you'd want the private jet on your "5 acres of land"
> so you could get there...there is a world of difference between dreams
> and reality!

Oh I know - I really would love to live in northern Queensland but I've never been
there from Nov-Mar when I've heard they tend to have a little rain...

> >> The house prices in Sydney are inflated, because, like London, that's
> >> where the majority of high-paying jobs are. The same can be said about
> >> Auckland in New Zealand, where as I said previously, housing prices have
> >> outstripped income.
> >
> > The same is true in the UK, especially London. According to the Nationwide the
> > average first time buyer has to spend 66% of their income on mortgage payments!
And
> > they are the ones who *can* afford to buy. And this is at a time when interest
rates
> > are historically low.
>
> And I think that means that those people really *can't* afford to buy,
> and should be concentrating on their quality of life, instead of chasing
> the dream. But that's just me. There's nothing wrong with not owning a
> house if it means you get to see your family!

But generally renting costs about the same price, or even more, than buying. So if
they want/need to live in London it's what they have to pay.

> > Yes, I know what you mean. It's important to chat with people who've already made
the
> > move which you're about to make - ask them what they miss, and what is
better/worse.
> > If you only see bad in the country you are leaving, then you'll probably only end
up
> > seeing bad in the country you move to.
>
> Good to know you saw my point! It helped our move considerably that
> hubby and I were "dyed in the wool" Anglophiles before we made the move
> here. We had been offered similar in the US 10 years ago, but really
> couldn't bring ourselves to make that move, as it was too "alien"
> (apologies to any from the US who may be reading this, but there are
> closer similarities between the people of Sydney and the people of
> London in particular. Accent for one, believe it or not, given that
> Sydney "strine" is descended from Cockney (mind you, it takes certain
> qualities from the Irish accent as well, so we may have been equally
> happy in ROI - I often hear a Sydney accent when listening to Terry Wogan!).

Yup, Americans can often not tell the British and Australian accents apart.

> > Absolutely - but a higher population density also means that land becomes a much
more
> > valuable commodity - resulting in high property prices and rents. As per above,
if
> > people are spending two thirds of their income on their mortgage, then that's
going
> > to be much more significant than any savings made through being able to buy stuff
in
> > bulk. Of course Sydney may have the worst of both worlds... but on average
Australia
> > is surely going to have much lower land prices than the UK simply because of
> > population density.
>
> Ah yes, but the *land* that Australians generally like to live on is
> probably not much more, bunched all together, than maybe 2 (at a pinch
> 3) of the UK. There's this huge bit in the middle, the "outback" which
> is mostly devoid of humans. There's a reason the mountain range
> separating Sydney from the rest of Australia is called "The Great
> Dividing Range". Beyond that it's all dry and 'orrible! There's belts
> of green-ness, but they're few and far between, and generally within 2-3
> hours of the coast all around.

Yes - but that's a lot of coast!

> I bet if you were to make the move to
> your house in "Queensland with a second house in somewhere like Perth
> for the rainy season" that neither would be those places with 5 acres
> etc, because you'd want to live somewhere close-ish to amenities - ie.
> along the coast or slightly inland, but certainly not to one of the
> places where you *could* have your five acres...there's too many people
> to have those in the cities!

I wouldn't want 5 acres anyway - just a bungalow type house with a pool, a big
kitchen and living area, and about 5 bedrooms. 10 mins walk to the beach. That's do
me.

> >> The
> >> people in the North of Scotland probably think they're hard done by, but
> >> they're still better off than people in Australia, because there's
> >> enough people to support the country.
> >
> > They are also better off than people in London - since they could probably get a
5
> > bed cottage with 3 acres on land for the price of the average London flat...
>
> Ah, there you go with your Home and Away thinking again! Where are
> these mythical three acres?

I was talking about Northern Scotland (I've never even watched Home and Away!). I
know someone who lives a mile from Loch Ness and he has got a big cottage with a lot
of land, for a price of less than the average London flat.

> If you're referring to what your friends
> who are making the move to Perth are saying, remember again what I said,
> "Perth is a world away from Sydney and the rest of Australia". People
> who want to live in a London flat make that choice. As I said, there's
> plenty of houses available where we live for less than what you claim is
> average for London.

It's not my claim, it's the claim of the biggest building society in the UK!

> There is the mentality (not saying this is what you
> have) that anything "sarf of the River" isn't worth considering.
> Perhaps I shouldn't be saying this (shh! It's a secret!) but, *it's not
> true!*

The same is true in Manchester - there is a vast price difference between the north
and south. My first house, 5 miles north of the city centre, would have cost 50% more
if it had been 5 miles south in a very similar suburb!

> > Salmon is now farmed in Scotland so it's very cheap, and there have been various
> > health scares about farmed salmon due to the intensive way they are reared. Wild
> > salmon is still expensive, and Scottish fishermen have been complaining about
wild
> > salmon being infected with sea lice etc from escaped farmed salmons, which are
> > reducing the wild population.
>
> Australia has similar problems with regard to fish-stocks and so on, I
> read that the powers that be are considering farming Barramundi (a
> native Australian "good eating" fish) over here - beware!

And very nice it is too! Although I hope they don't start farming it.

> If that gets
> loose into the native fish populations there'll be nothing left!
> They're Australia's answer to the pirahna (and I guess they'd probably
> give the pike a run for their money as well!).

Yup - pretty nasty looking things.

> >> and "stuff" is far cheaper here than in Australia,
> >> mostly due to the lesser distance it has to travel. More people in a
> >> country also means that you have more infrastructure, and more people to
> >> maintain it. Even the telly is better over here...because there's a
> >> larger market - supply and demand. Again, you're being devil's
> >> advocate, aren't you!
> >
> > No (well maybe a little!). I take your point here, but the price of property and
land
> > (specifically land with planning permission) has a greater effect on prices. A
shop
> > in the UK will have a high rent, and what they gain in being able to buy in bulk
they
> > lose in rental prices. Similarly people generally pay a big percentage of their
> > income in rent or mortgage.
>
> It's the same "on the other side of the street". With lower incomes
> come the same problems with paying rent/mortgage, and we found that over
> here with our mortgage (at current interest rates) we are repaying
> double what we've borrowed, whereas in Australia (at current interest
> rates) we'd be repaying triple. Australia has land shortages too you
> know, in areas that people *want* to live in! In fact, the previous
> premier of New South Wales was wanting to put a cap on the amount of
> people allowed to move to Sydney, because it was getting overcrowded.

It's surprising that the major cities are still so popular with employers - in the
modern day world of high speed communications it seems to make no sense locating in
expensive areas.

> > Yes, living not to far from "the Potteries"...
>
> So you know to what I refer! That sort of thing is a cottage industry
> in Australia, and therefore the cost is passed onto the purchaser, which
> means that these things are luxury goods and that average Joe and Joanne
> buys the cheaper stuff made in China. My point was that you could buy
> the same made in England, here, in Asda etc!

Indeed - but it's only a relatively small proportion of manufactured goods.

> >> We were amazed to find that BMWs are pretty much an
> >> "everyman" car over here (not us!), whereas they're a luxury good in
> >> Australia. In fact, we've just paid £850 for a seven seater Volvo that
> >> we'd expect to pay 5 or 6 thousand dollars for in Sydney. Luxury!
> >
> > I don't know what car prices are like in Australia - but they are certainly
expensive
> > in the UK compared to the rest of Europe (pre tax) or the US. Things have got
better
> > thanks to various campaigns, car "supermarkets", and the EU threatening the
> > manufacturers.
>
> See above for an example of car prices. Cars are expensive in Australia
> because they're mostly imported (in fact, I think they're all imported
> now, they closed the last Ford factory before we left). I think petrol
> is expensive here, but cars are comparatively cheap.

Compared to Australia - perhaps, but not to Europe or the US. The car manufacturers
refer to the UK as "treasure island" because of the prices they get away with
charging here!

> >> I think it all works out in the wash, and it depends where you live and
> >> what your interests are, but as someone else has already said, those who
> >> whinge about their country while they're living there, will probably
> >> whinge about the country the move to, those who find it difficult to
> >> adapt to their original country will find it difficult to adapt
> >> elsewhere...but those who are happy where they are, will generally be
> >> happy wherever.
> >>
> >> Now, that was fairly long-winded...I hope I've made some sense...
> >
> > Yup. I think you need to understand what disadvantages there are to the country
you
> > intend to move to - because there will be some.
> >
>
> And I hope it's useful to the original poster who's now probably wishing
> she hadn't posted her problems in the first place!
>
> I should now go and feed my starving brood - hmmm...what to have?
> Salmon steak perhaps, intensively farmed, running the risk of lice
> infestation?!

Every type of food seems to have some scare associated with it these days. We've just
had a blow-out chinese banquet - so probably a different food scare with each
mouthful...

--
Andy


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