Re: Quality of life in the UK

Andy Pandy wrote: 
"Lisa Hafey" <lisa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:43db728c$0$23286$db0fefd9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Yes, there are houses available to buy in Sydney that are cheaper than
in London, but my point was, not as close to the centre of Sydney as
what we've been able to buy in south-east London.  In our case, we paid
£190K for a 3br semi-detached (ie. about $475K Australian) ex-Local
Authority house.


That's extremely cheap for London! Even the average flat in London costs more than
that.

A house of similar quality 10 miles south of the
centre of Sydney (where we were previously renting) sells on average
$600K - yes, that's average price, ie. roughly £240K.


That's about the same as London, see:

http://www.nationwide.co.uk/hpi/historical/Q405London.pdf

Also I'd wager the average house in Sydney is bigger that the average house in
London?

Firstly, remember I said, a house that's ten miles from the centre of Sydney? Of similar quality? I think if you're talking average size, you'd be very surprised about the similarities. Most houses in Sydney at least are of what we'd call the "bungalow" variety over here. So, if you were able to put all on the one level the houses you buy here, you'd see that you're getting the same sort of deal. And the house we bought here certainly wasn't highly priced - as I said, it's ex-Local Authority. There's others around in the same area for cheaper than that. I think you have to get the idea out of your head that life is all Home and Away in Sydney...for one thing, there's no glut of homeless, abandoned, foster children around the Palm Beach area (where H&A is set). It also rains a lot more and for longer! 

If we went
further south or further west, quality of life, and also quality of
housing decreases.  Notable exceptions are the "rich-man's paradise"
kind of places in the Sutherland shire, think Sylvania Waters, which
have an average price of $1 million or thereabouts.  The Western Suburbs
has affordable housing, but unless you work in Parramatta or elsewhere
in the west, it's going to take you 2 hours commuting each way.


There are many people who commute ridiculous distances into London - some from places
like Yorkshire and South Wales!

That may well be, but they're silly aren't they! Remember we were talking about quality of life! 

Perth is a whole world away from Sydney in terms of cost of living, as
well as distance.


As are many parts of the UK, compared to London (OK the distances are much smaller,
but the cost of living is much lower outside London).

Okay, but your comments are based on what you know of Perth, or rather, what your friends have told you of Perth. Outside Sydney, yes, the cost of living is dramatically different, but then again, so are the income levels, which I gather is the same with London and outside London. It still costs a lot more to live in Australia than the holiday ads and those "A Place in the Sun" shows would like you to think. Everyone I know who's travelled here from Australia for a holiday has slagged off how expensive it is - but then they are spending money that is worth 2/5 of the pound. We decided that once we were paid in pounds we would no longer compare prices, but when we occasionally lapsed (and quite a lot in my previous posts!) we discovered that it wasn't nearly so bad here as we'd been led to believe.

Melbourne is more like Sydney 
than Perth, but again, it has the feel of a big country town rather than
a state capital.


It's also got UK-like weather, which would put me off!

I'd like to live in Queensland, with a second home somewhere else like Perth for the
rainy season...

Yes, and I suspect you'd want the private jet on your "5 acres of land" so you could get there...there is a world of difference between dreams and reality! 

The house prices in Sydney are inflated, because, like London, that's
where the majority of high-paying jobs are.  The same can be said about
Auckland in New Zealand, where as I said previously, housing prices have
outstripped income.


The same is true in the UK, especially London. According to the Nationwide the
average first time buyer has to spend 66% of their income on mortgage payments! And
they are the ones who *can* afford to buy. And this is at a time when interest rates
are historically low.

And I think that means that those people really *can't* afford to buy, and should be concentrating on their quality of life, instead of chasing the dream. But that's just me. There's nothing wrong with not owning a house if it means you get to see your family!

I'm 
not suggesting that starting later results in low educational
achievement (I suspect the Swedish teaching methods are something we
should learn from in any case), but I was just saying that early
starting works/worked better for us, given that our kids were ready for
it.  Mind you, I would also have held my son back if I had thought he
would have benefited that way.


Yes - I think it depends very much on the individual child - some may be ready at 4,
others maybe not till they are 7. A bit of flexibilty in the system would be nice.

I can only agree with you there! 

Yes, I know what you mean. It's important to chat with people who've already made the
move which you're about to make - ask them what they miss, and what is better/worse.
If you only see bad in the country you are leaving, then you'll probably only end up
seeing bad in the country you move to.

Good to know you saw my point! It helped our move considerably that hubby and I were "dyed in the wool" Anglophiles before we made the move here. We had been offered similar in the US 10 years ago, but really couldn't bring ourselves to make that move, as it was too "alien" (apologies to any from the US who may be reading this, but there are closer similarities between the people of Sydney and the people of London in particular. Accent for one, believe it or not, given that Sydney "strine" is descended from Cockney (mind you, it takes certain qualities from the Irish accent as well, so we may have been equally happy in ROI - I often hear a Sydney accent when listening to Terry Wogan!). 


Absolutely - but a higher population density also means that land becomes a much more
valuable commodity - resulting in high property prices and rents. As per above, if
people are spending two thirds of their income on their mortgage, then that's going
to be much more significant than any savings made through being able to buy stuff in
bulk. Of course Sydney may have the worst of both worlds... but on average Australia
is surely going to have much lower land prices than the UK simply because of
population density.

Ah yes, but the *land* that Australians generally like to live on is probably not much more, bunched all together, than maybe 2 (at a pinch 3) of the UK. There's this huge bit in the middle, the "outback" which is mostly devoid of humans. There's a reason the mountain range separating Sydney from the rest of Australia is called "The Great Dividing Range". Beyond that it's all dry and 'orrible! There's belts of green-ness, but they're few and far between, and generally within 2-3 hours of the coast all around. I bet if you were to make the move to your house in "Queensland with a second house in somewhere like Perth for the rainy season" that neither would be those places with 5 acres etc, because you'd want to live somewhere close-ish to amenities - ie. along the coast or slightly inland, but certainly not to one of the places where you *could* have your five acres...there's too many people to have those in the cities!

The 
people in the North of Scotland probably think they're hard done by, but
they're still better off than people in Australia, because there's
enough people to support the country.


They are also better off than people in London - since they could probably get a 5
bed cottage with 3 acres on land for the price of the average London flat...

Ah, there you go with your Home and Away thinking again! Where are these mythical three acres? If you're referring to what your friends who are making the move to Perth are saying, remember again what I said, "Perth is a world away from Sydney and the rest of Australia". People who want to live in a London flat make that choice. As I said, there's plenty of houses available where we live for less than what you claim is average for London. There is the mentality (not saying this is what you have) that anything "sarf of the River" isn't worth considering. Perhaps I shouldn't be saying this (shh! It's a secret!) but, *it's not true!* 


Salmon is now farmed in Scotland so it's very cheap, and there have been various
health scares about farmed salmon due to the intensive way they are reared. Wild
salmon is still expensive, and Scottish fishermen have been complaining about wild
salmon being infected with sea lice etc from escaped farmed salmons, which are
reducing the wild population.

Australia has similar problems with regard to fish-stocks and so on, I read that the powers that be are considering farming Barramundi (a native Australian "good eating" fish) over here - beware! If that gets loose into the native fish populations there'll be nothing left! They're Australia's answer to the pirahna (and I guess they'd probably give the pike a run for their money as well!). 

and "stuff" is far cheaper here than in Australia,
mostly due to the lesser distance it has to travel.  More people in a
country also means that you have more infrastructure, and more people to
maintain it.  Even the telly is better over here...because there's a
larger market - supply and demand.  Again, you're being devil's
advocate, aren't you!


No (well maybe a little!). I take your point here, but the price of property and land
(specifically land with planning permission) has a greater effect on prices. A shop
in the UK will have a high rent, and what they gain in being able to buy in bulk they
lose in rental prices. Similarly people generally pay a big percentage of their
income in rent or mortgage.

It's the same "on the other side of the street". With lower incomes come the same problems with paying rent/mortgage, and we found that over here with our mortgage (at current interest rates) we are repaying double what we've borrowed, whereas in Australia (at current interest rates) we'd be repaying triple. Australia has land shortages too you know, in areas that people *want* to live in! In fact, the previous premier of New South Wales was wanting to put a cap on the amount of people allowed to move to Sydney, because it was getting overcrowded.

Yes, living not to far from "the Potteries"...

So you know to what I refer! That sort of thing is a cottage industry in Australia, and therefore the cost is passed onto the purchaser, which means that these things are luxury goods and that average Joe and Joanne buys the cheaper stuff made in China. My point was that you could buy the same made in England, here, in Asda etc!

We were amazed to find that BMWs are pretty much an 
"everyman" car over here (not us!), whereas they're a luxury good in
Australia.  In fact, we've just paid £850 for a seven seater Volvo that
we'd expect to pay 5 or 6 thousand dollars for in Sydney.  Luxury!


I don't know what car prices are like in Australia - but they are certainly expensive
in the UK compared to the rest of Europe (pre tax) or the US. Things have got better
thanks to various campaigns, car "supermarkets", and the EU threatening the
manufacturers.

See above for an example of car prices. Cars are expensive in Australia because they're mostly imported (in fact, I think they're all imported now, they closed the last Ford factory before we left). I think petrol is expensive here, but cars are comparatively cheap. 

I think it all works out in the wash, and it depends where you live and
what your interests are, but as someone else has already said, those who
whinge about their country while they're living there, will probably
whinge about the country the move to, those who find it difficult to
adapt to their original country will find it difficult to adapt
elsewhere...but those who are happy where they are, will generally be
happy wherever.

Now, that was fairly long-winded...I hope I've made some sense... 

Yup. I think you need to understand what disadvantages there are to the country you
intend to move to - because there will be some.


And I hope it's useful to the original poster who's now probably wishing she hadn't posted her problems in the first place!

I should now go and feed my starving brood - hmmm...what to have? Salmon steak perhaps, intensively farmed, running the risk of lice infestation?!

Lisa
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