Re: Quality of life in the UK


"Lisa Hafey" <lisa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:43db728c$0$23286$db0fefd9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > I find is surprising though, from what I've heard about Australian property
prices,
> > that Sydney is more expensive than London. But I don't know anyone who has moved
to
> > Sydney. I know some people who have/are about to move to Melbourne and Perth, the
> > ones moving to Perth say that average prices are similar to here (Manchester),
but
> > the average house is 3 times the size and a pool seems to be almost standard!
> >
>
> I shall rephrase now, given that it's 12.19pm and I'm slightly more
> lucid (thanks for replying to my post by the way, I was beginning to
> think it hadn't got through).

No problem.

> Yes, there are houses available to buy in Sydney that are cheaper than
> in London, but my point was, not as close to the centre of Sydney as
> what we've been able to buy in south-east London. In our case, we paid
> £190K for a 3br semi-detached (ie. about $475K Australian) ex-Local
> Authority house.

That's extremely cheap for London! Even the average flat in London costs more than
that.

> A house of similar quality 10 miles south of the
> centre of Sydney (where we were previously renting) sells on average
> $600K - yes, that's average price, ie. roughly £240K.

That's about the same as London, see:

http://www.nationwide.co.uk/hpi/historical/Q405London.pdf

Also I'd wager the average house in Sydney is bigger that the average house in
London?

> If we went
> further south or further west, quality of life, and also quality of
> housing decreases. Notable exceptions are the "rich-man's paradise"
> kind of places in the Sutherland shire, think Sylvania Waters, which
> have an average price of $1 million or thereabouts. The Western Suburbs
> has affordable housing, but unless you work in Parramatta or elsewhere
> in the west, it's going to take you 2 hours commuting each way.

There are many people who commute ridiculous distances into London - some from places
like Yorkshire and South Wales!

> Perth is a whole world away from Sydney in terms of cost of living, as
> well as distance.

As are many parts of the UK, compared to London (OK the distances are much smaller,
but the cost of living is much lower outside London).

> It's even in a different time zone! All those "A
> Place in the Sun" programmes show happy Brits moving to Perth and
> Fremantle, and yes, the houses are bigger, and yes, it does seem that
> the houses are cheaper. There is the trade-off though in it being
> isolated from the rest of Australia, being closer to south-east Asia
> than it is to Sydney. There's also only about 1.5 million people in
> Perth, whereas Sydney had a population of 4 million in 1996 - don't know
> what it is now. Sydney has a lot about it that resembles London when
> you live there, all the hustle and bustle that comes from living in a
> big city and the associated problems. Melbourne is more like Sydney
> than Perth, but again, it has the feel of a big country town rather than
> a state capital.

It's also got UK-like weather, which would put me off!

I'd like to live in Queensland, with a second home somewhere else like Perth for the
rainy season...

> The house prices in Sydney are inflated, because, like London, that's
> where the majority of high-paying jobs are. The same can be said about
> Auckland in New Zealand, where as I said previously, housing prices have
> outstripped income.

The same is true in the UK, especially London. According to the Nationwide the
average first time buyer has to spend 66% of their income on mortgage payments! And
they are the ones who *can* afford to buy. And this is at a time when interest rates
are historically low.

> > I don't think UK schools would either. My nephew started school just after his
4th
> > birthday - personally I think that's far too young. In some countries, like
Sweden,
> > children don't start school till they are 7, and it doesn't seem to result in
lower
> > educational achievement.
>
> Oh yes, I was aware of that. As I said, "I know the situation would
> have been the same over here if his birthday had been 1 September or
> whatever the day after the cut-off was". What I was trying to say was
> that it's worked out for the best for us to have come here where there
> is such a thing as "rising fives". Australian author Steve Biddulph
> wrote a book in 1998 called "Raising Boys", in which he recommended that
> because boys mature later than girls, they shouldn't start school until
> they're at least 6. Since then there's been whole primary schools of
> classes where the boys are 1-2 years older than the girls. In New
> Zealand and parts of South Africa the starting age at school is 7. I'm
> not suggesting that starting later results in low educational
> achievement (I suspect the Swedish teaching methods are something we
> should learn from in any case), but I was just saying that early
> starting works/worked better for us, given that our kids were ready for
> it. Mind you, I would also have held my son back if I had thought he
> would have benefited that way.

Yes - I think it depends very much on the individual child - some may be ready at 4,
others maybe not till they are 7. A bit of flexibilty in the system would be nice.

> >> Culturally we feel far happier in England, as we have an interest in
> >> history, and so enjoy the access to historic sites all over the country
> >> - goodness, there's ROMAN RUINS less than 3 miles from our house! - not
> >> to mention that huge land mass a ferry trip away, Europe. There's
> >> nothing comparable in Australia. Indeed, the closest "overseas travel"
> >> is three hours away to New Zealand, and it's just like Australia, only
> >> with pointier (and more violent) mountains...It's all very well if you
> >> like scenery, but if you want to feed your brain...nah, nothing there.
> >
> > Well, if human history is the only thing you want to feed your brain with that
may be
> > true. But if you try a diet of geology, natural history, biology, astronomy etc
> > there's at least as much food in Australia as here.
>
> Yes, maybe. Again, I was referring to us. My response to the original
> poster was to give the example of our experience of life "where the
> grass is greener". Your mileage, and that of your emigrating friends,
> may vary, and given your comments, probably will!

Yes, I know what you mean. It's important to chat with people who've already made the
move which you're about to make - ask them what they miss, and what is better/worse.
If you only see bad in the country you are leaving, then you'll probably only end up
seeing bad in the country you move to.

> >> My husband's favourite phrase is "economies of scale". 60 million
> >> people in the UK means that there's enough money coming in and going out
> >> of a tiny little group of islands to ensure just about everyone can do
> >> what they want for a price they can afford, if only they look hard
> >> enough.
> >
> > Using that logic you'd expect the cost of living in the north of Scotland to be
much
> > higher than central London! It may be for some things - but I'd wager most things
are
> > cheaper in places with a lower population density.
>
> No no! I think you misunderstand me. 60 million people in a place the
> size of New Zealand means that you can buy stuff in bulk, whereas 20
> million people in a country the size of the US means that you have to
> buy lesser amounts, and so it costs more.

Absolutely - but a higher population density also means that land becomes a much more
valuable commodity - resulting in high property prices and rents. As per above, if
people are spending two thirds of their income on their mortgage, then that's going
to be much more significant than any savings made through being able to buy stuff in
bulk. Of course Sydney may have the worst of both worlds... but on average Australia
is surely going to have much lower land prices than the UK simply because of
population density.

> Plus it makes sense that
> being at the "bottom of the world" as are Australia and New Zealand
> (remember, it takes 24 hours to fly between Sydney and the UK, and 10
> hours to China) it's going to cost more than if you're nearer to where
> everything's made. Simple economics. Your comment on my logic doesn't
> really make sense. The north of Scotland is still part of the UK, still
> part of the 60 million people that populate this group of islands. The
> people in the North of Scotland probably think they're hard done by, but
> they're still better off than people in Australia, because there's
> enough people to support the country.

They are also better off than people in London - since they could probably get a 5
bed cottage with 3 acres on land for the price of the average London flat...

> We've been living here for 13 months now, and have found that food costs
> pretty much the same, if not cheaper (of course, that depends on what
> you're buying - salmon is a luxury good in Australia, but it seems to be
> "normal" food here, whereas meat is cheaper in Australia, but a luxury
> commodity here),

Salmon is now farmed in Scotland so it's very cheap, and there have been various
health scares about farmed salmon due to the intensive way they are reared. Wild
salmon is still expensive, and Scottish fishermen have been complaining about wild
salmon being infected with sea lice etc from escaped farmed salmons, which are
reducing the wild population.

> and "stuff" is far cheaper here than in Australia,
> mostly due to the lesser distance it has to travel. More people in a
> country also means that you have more infrastructure, and more people to
> maintain it. Even the telly is better over here...because there's a
> larger market - supply and demand. Again, you're being devil's
> advocate, aren't you!

No (well maybe a little!). I take your point here, but the price of property and land
(specifically land with planning permission) has a greater effect on prices. A shop
in the UK will have a high rent, and what they gain in being able to buy in bulk they
lose in rental prices. Similarly people generally pay a big percentage of their
income in rent or mortgage.

> > I think you'll find most manufactured goods in the UK are made in places like
China.
> > Most of our kids' toys seem to be made in China. The UK manufacturing industry
has
> > been practically wiped out over the last few decades, with a few notable
exceptions.
>
> I think China has secured the kids toys market world-wide! But I take
> issue with your comment about the UK manufacturing industry being
> practically wiped out. You can still buy crockery off the shelf, even
> in Sainsburys or whatever, that's made in England. You can still buy
> linen made here (English-made towels in particular I was amazed to find
> in Asda)...if made in Australia, similar items are classed as luxury
> goods and certainly not sold in supermarkets, discount stores or
> whatever. Of course, these may be your notable exceptions...

Yes, living not to far from "the Potteries"...

> The big thing we've noticed is the relative cheapness of cars here.
> Seemingly an essential in Australia with it's wide-open spaces and
> extreme distances between places, you'd think that they'd be cheap to
> come by. But no, unless you're referring to Perth/Western Australia,
> where for some reason you can buy cars for $100 or thereabouts, but I
> think that's more to do with relaxed licensing and registration than
> anything else. We were amazed to find that BMWs are pretty much an
> "everyman" car over here (not us!), whereas they're a luxury good in
> Australia. In fact, we've just paid £850 for a seven seater Volvo that
> we'd expect to pay 5 or 6 thousand dollars for in Sydney. Luxury!

I don't know what car prices are like in Australia - but they are certainly expensive
in the UK compared to the rest of Europe (pre tax) or the US. Things have got better
thanks to various campaigns, car "supermarkets", and the EU threatening the
manufacturers.

> I think it all works out in the wash, and it depends where you live and
> what your interests are, but as someone else has already said, those who
> whinge about their country while they're living there, will probably
> whinge about the country the move to, those who find it difficult to
> adapt to their original country will find it difficult to adapt
> elsewhere...but those who are happy where they are, will generally be
> happy wherever.
>
> Now, that was fairly long-winded...I hope I've made some sense...

Yup. I think you need to understand what disadvantages there are to the country you
intend to move to - because there will be some.

--
Andy


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