Re: Fish don't have ethical feet it doesn't mean they can't move- was Re: Ethical feet


"H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>>
>> "H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:3jfltqFpsg6fU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>but for example, would you want evidence from a marine biologist?
>> I would accept evidence from anyone that understood the objective.
>
> And how would you determine whether they understood the objective?

Ask then, or see if theirn test could prove what they say it did.
Liek I said hammering a NiN into a hoof is not proof that
horses hooves feel pain.

>>>Or from a comparative psychologist? Or a neurologist?
>> That'slike asking if a VET could do a human liver transplant isn't it.
>
> Which? Comparitive psychologists deal with animals, and neurologists deal
> with brains.
So Comparitive psychologists don't deal with humans do they deal with fish ?

Do neurologists know as much about fish brains as they do human ones.

>>> or a chap who works at an aquarium? Or an assistant at the local
>>> tropical fish shop?
>> I know a few of them and the one that's about 70 started fishing at
>> the age of around 10, kept fish for something like 40 years and has won
>> trophies
>> for fuishing and breeding a keeping fish, yes I might listen to his POV a
>> bit more
>> intently than a student that's just passed their degree in fish studies.
>
> OK, so academic study isn't important, from your point of view?
I never said that, but an academic wopuld have to prove that they understood
what pain is and where it is located in the brain and what exactly causes
this 'pain' and then show me that the same things exist in fish and that the
messages are send/recived in the same way and produce the same effects.

> Do you think a fish shop assistant would have checked and rechecked their
> evidence in the way you require?
Someone that has been in the business 50 years might have more experiece
than someone that had just passed their exams.


>>> Or a fisherman? What sort of person? Are you looking for scientific
>>> studies, or first-hand experience, or what?
>> I'm looking for evidence to prove it one way or another,
>
> But you haven't said what _sort_ of evidence, other than that it has to be
> reliable. Do you understand what I'm asking you?
No idea, is it like asking what evidence you look for to prove rape,
and you say well sex has taken place so it must be rape.


>>> *sigh* OK, you've said you won't accept those two. Can you come up with
>>> any examples that you _would_ accept?
>>
>> The same way you'd know that someone was in pain,
>> by looking at them of course.
>
> Except that actually, you can't tell, by looking at someone, whether
> they're in pain; you have to ask them.
You can tell without asking.



>> Now how would you know someone was in pain if they could speak
>> or use any form of written or spoken conversation.
>
> With difficulty. You'd look at their heart-rate and breathing, you'd look
> at whether they were pressing their hands over a wound, and you'd look at
> the physical damage, but you'vce rejected all of those as signs of pain
> already, so they're no help, are they?

No they aren't peole cover tjhioer wounds to protect them not because
they are painful.


>
>> Yu see if you see someone remove chewing gum from the heel of their
>> pointy boot it's not because they feel pain, peole don't feel pain
>> in their shoes but for you I guess that would be evidence enough
>> to prove that boots hurt.
>
> No Dave, of course it wouldn't. Why do you keep doing that?
Because you do.


>>> Do you understand what I'm asking for here?
>>
>> Theer's isn't any one thing you're asking the impossible,
>
> No, I'm not. i'm asking for hypothetical examples of a way in which a fish
> could demonstrate, to your satisfaction, that it was feeling pain. If
> there are no ways in which it could do that, then just say so.

They don't have to demonstrate it to me, any more than a beagle
has to demomstarte that smoking is a health hazard.

> Yes, it is a bit like that. Now, I feel satisfied that other humans do
> feel pain, based on the sort of evidence to which we have access. Do you
> think other humans feel pain, or do you think it's impossible to tell if
> _any_ animal is in pain?

You can run certain tests.


>> You have claimed two things that you think proves fish feel pain
>> both are WRONG rapid breathing and rubbing against rocks
>> is not a sign of pain.
>
> They _could_ be a sign of pain. By the way, i didn't say "rubbing against
> rocks"; Jenny pointed out that, just as humans will press their hands over
> an injury site when in pain, fish will press an injury site up against
> something such as the side of their tank. That's not quite the same thing.

Well not having observed this I wouldn't comment.

>>
>> And that's how I'd tell from behavour,
>
> OK, excellent. What sort of behaviour would fish exhibit when in pain, if
> they could feel pain?

Erratic behavour which can not be put down to anything else.



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