Re: Fish don't have ethical feet it doesn't mean they can't move- was Re: Ethical feet


"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dau1jq$q6v$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:3jf73rFplkgbU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Please be specific rather than just giving vague descriptions.
> You want me to narrow it down to one individual ?
> would the Pope do.

Does the Pope know anything about fish? No, one individual is more specific
than we need, but for example, would you want evidence from a marine
biologist? Or from a comparative psychologist? Or a neurologist? or a chap
who works at an aquarium? Or an assistant at the local tropical fish shop?
Or a fisherman? What sort of person? Are you looking for scientific studies,
or first-hand experience, or what?

>> *sigh* I've given you a couple of examples of possible evidence; raised
>> heart rate and pressing the injured area against something. You don't
>> accept that those would show evidence of pain;
> Raised heart rate is the fishes way of responding to hanges in
> temperature.
> So you rub your head against rocks when you have a head ache do you ?
> When people break their fracture/legs the fist thing they do is press
> them up against walls is that true.

*sigh* OK, you've said you won't accept those two. Can you come up with any
examples that you _would_ accept?

>> can you think of any examples which _would_? See, we could show over and
>> over again that injured fish have an increased heart rate; that would be
>> repeatable and testable; it would be, in scientific terms, reliable.
> Increased heart rate is not a good method of detecting pain in fish.

So what _would_ be a good way of detecting pain in fish?

>> Now, obviously whatever evidence we want to use to show whether or not
>> fish can feel pain would have to be reliable, but it would _also_ have to
>> be valid.
>> So, can you think of any forms of evidence which you would consider
>> _valid_?
>
> A repeatable experiment that would eliminate other effects that mich look
> like pain
> such as discomfort, if a fish opens it's mouth regualry it's doesn't mean
> it'sdying of thirst,
> which might be the case for a human so don't assume the same acts mean the
> same thing.

I'm not asking you to describe reliability, Dave. i'm asking you to provide
an actual example of something that _would_ constitute evidence that fish
feel pain, in your view.
Do you understand what I'm asking for here?

>> I'm not asking you whether they should be reliable, whether they should
>> be repeatable, I'm asking you to try to think of what might prove that
>> fish feel pain, if it were reliable. OK?
> It would be difficult but first you'd need to understabnd what pain
> actualy is before
> you go looking for signs of it.

Why? Do you think we can be certain that any non-human animals feel pain?
Can we be certain that other humans feel pain?

>> Depends what sort of aliens.
>> If we find fossilised bacteria in rocks from somewhere other than earth,
> but you'd need to know every form of bacterai on earth and cross reference
> before you could claim it as alien. Or you'd have to find something
> uniquie
> that nothing else on earth is a match for.

No you wouldn't; if the fossils came from somewhere other than earth, the
bacteria much be non-terrestrial, even if it's the same sort that we have
here.

>> I would accept that as evidence of extra-terrestrail life. I'm pretty
>> sure that wouldn't prove that fish feel pain though.
>
> Well it wouldn't but you might claim it does if the bacteria was to be
> seen
> 'rubbing' itself against a rock or something, because you see anything
> that is
> rubbing as being in pain.

No Dave, I don't see all rubbing as pain. I used that as an example of a
behaviour which often accompanies painful stimulus. Yoyu really have trouble
separating specific examples and universal statements, don't you?

>
> No you tell me the difference from being in pain to being in discomfort,
> work out a way you'd tell the two apart and try it on a fish.

Pain is more acute discomfort, basically. It's almost impossible to tell the
two apart in humans (some people have a higher pain tolerance than others),
so all we can go on in non-humans is behaviour.

H


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