Re: Fish don't have ethical feet it doesn't mean they can't move- was Re: Ethical feet


"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:db05f8$gd4$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:3jfltqFpsg6fU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>but for example, would you want evidence from a marine biologist?
> I would accept evidence from anyone that understood the objective.

And how would you determine whether they understood the objective?

>
>>Or from a comparative psychologist? Or a neurologist?
> That'slike asking if a VET could do a human liver transplant isn't it.

Which? Comparitive psychologists deal with animals, and neurologists deal
with brains.

>
>> or a chap who works at an aquarium? Or an assistant at the local tropical
>> fish shop?
> I know a few of them and the one that's about 70 started fishing at
> the age of around 10, kept fish for something like 40 years and has won
> trophies
> for fuishing and breeding a keeping fish, yes I might listen to his POV a
> bit more
> intently than a student that's just passed their degree in fish studies.

OK, so academic study isn't important, from your point of view?
Do you think a fish shop assistant would have checked and rechecked their
evidence in the way you require?

>> Or a fisherman? What sort of person? Are you looking for scientific
>> studies, or first-hand experience, or what?
> I'm looking for evidence to prove it one way or another,

But you haven't said what _sort_ of evidence, other than that it has to be
reliable. Do you understand what I'm asking you?

>> *sigh* OK, you've said you won't accept those two. Can you come up with
>> any examples that you _would_ accept?
>
> The same way you'd know that someone was in pain,
> by looking at them of course.

Except that actually, you can't tell, by looking at someone, whether they're
in pain; you have to ask them. You can't ask fish whether they're in pain.
So does that mean that you don't think there is any evidence which could
convince you that fish feel pain?

> Now how would you know someone was in pain if they could speak
> or use any form of written or spoken conversation.

With difficulty. You'd look at their heart-rate and breathing, you'd look at
whether they were pressing their hands over a wound, and you'd look at the
physical damage, but you'vce rejected all of those as signs of pain already,
so they're no help, are they?

> That would be the sort of evidence I could accept, but it would also
> have to be proved that it was not discomfort.

In other words, that's the sort of evidence you'd accept, only you wouldn't
accept it?

> Yu see if you see someone remove chewing gum from the heel of their
> pointy boot it's not because they feel pain, peole don't feel pain
> in their shoes but for you I guess that would be evidence enough
> to prove that boots hurt.

No Dave, of course it wouldn't. Why do you keep doing that? I'm not being
unreasonable here; I'm not trying to convince you of anything without
evidence; I'm simply trying to establish a standard of evidence which you
would accept, and you're not making it easy at all.

>
>
>
>>> Increased heart rate is not a good method of detecting pain in fish.
>>
>> So what _would_ be a good way of detecting pain in fish?
> By observing the way they react to certain physical and/or mental stimuli

Such as what, exactly?

>> I'm not asking you to describe reliability, Dave. i'm asking you to
>> provide an actual example of something that _would_ constitute evidence
>> that fish feel pain, in your view.
>> Do you understand what I'm asking for here?
>
> Theer's isn't any one thing you're asking the impossible,

No, I'm not. i'm asking for hypothetical examples of a way in which a fish
could demonstrate, to your satisfaction, that it was feeling pain. If there
are no ways in which it could do that, then just say so.

> it's liek askign how you'd prove humans feel pain,
> how could you tell from tests that humans feel pain
> a not just discomfort or sadness or any other emotion.

Yes, it is a bit like that. Now, I feel satisfied that other humans do feel
pain, based on the sort of evidence to which we have access. Do you think
other humans feel pain, or do you think it's impossible to tell if _any_
animal is in pain?

>> No you wouldn't; if the fossils came from somewhere other than earth, the
>> bacteria much be non-terrestrial, even if it's the same sort that we have
>> here.
> And how would you know they were non-terrestrial, would they have
> a made on mars logo, or an ET sticker. How would you be able to
> tell a non-terrestrial animal from a terrestrial one, it's language !

If the rocks were found on the moon or on Mars, or on any other
non-terrestrial body, once we get there, that would be fairly conclusive,
wouldn't it?

>> No Dave, I don't see all rubbing as pain. I used that as an example of a
>> behaviour which often accompanies painful stimulus. Yoyu really have
>> trouble separating specific examples and universal statements, don't you?
> No, you just don't see the assumption errors you make.
> You have claimed two things that you think proves fish feel pain
> both are WRONG rapid breathing and rubbing against rocks
> is not a sign of pain.

They _could_ be a sign of pain. By the way, i didn't say "rubbing against
rocks"; Jenny pointed out that, just as humans will press their hands over
an injury site when in pain, fish will press an injury site up against
something such as the side of their tank. That's not quite the same thing.

>> Pain is more acute discomfort, basically. It's almost impossible to tell
>> the two apart in humans (some people have a higher pain tolerance than
>> others), so all we can go on in non-humans is behaviour.
>
> And that's how I'd tell from behavour,

OK, excellent. What sort of behaviour would fish exhibit when in pain, if
they could feel pain?

H


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