Re: Fish don't have ethical feet it doesn't mean they can't move- was Re: Ethical feet


"whisky-dave" <whisky-dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:db5qva$cia$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:3jn35dFqbdeuU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> OK, this is what I thought;
> Pity you didn't act on that thought then.

Well, other than asking you if you understood what I was asking (which I
did), what else could I have done?

>> not. Heart-rate is an example of a possible measure, but we're rejecting
>> that one; I want you to come up with another possible measure, which _is_
>> valid, and which we can't reject.
>
> That's the probelm I can't think of one and biether has anyone else for
> the
> past few hundred years, that's why the subject is still debatable,
> peole still say talking to plants helps them grow but I've seen no such
> evidence of that either.

OK, again, this is what i've thought. You're asking to see evidence that
fish feel pain, but actually, there isn't anything that you would accept as
evidence. So there's no point in me looking, is there? You don't believe it,
and no evidence there could be will change your mind.

>> In other words, I want you to say something along the lines of "We could
>> measure X, and that would tell us whether fish feel pain or not", where
>> "X" is some behavioural or neurological thing that we could measure or
>> observe.
> Why not ask the professionals in the field.

Because they can't tell me what _you_ would accept; they could tell me what
_they_ accept, but you've made it clear that that's irrelevant to you.

>> You might feel that one single measure isn't enough, in which case you
>> might want to say "We could measure X and observe Y, and between the two
>> (or three, or however many) that would tell us whether fish feel pain or
>> not"
>>
>> Is that clearer?
>
> yes so go prove it.

Prove _what_, Dave? I'm not stating a case here, I'm asking you to give me
some examples of behaviours which would prove that fish feel pain, or that
they don't.

> I know you've think increased heart rate could, but as I said I rejected
> that immediately.

yes, I know, and you _keep_ repeating that, for some reason. I'm not trying
to convince you that an increased heart-rate is proof of pain, I'm trying to
find out from you what _would_ be proof of pain.

>
> So in your profession what would, prove to you that babies
> felt pain, try a really easy one first that is prove to me that babies
> feel pain.

You know they used to believe that babies didn't feel pain? They used
paralytic drugs instead of anaesthetics for young babies; after all, if they
weren't struggling or crying (because they'd been injected with curare and
therefore were physically unable to cry or struggle) they must not be
feeling anything.
Except that of course that's not true; babies feel pain just as we do.

The evidence is very similar to that which shows that adults feel pain; if
you do something like stick a needle into a child's foot (or some other
stimulus which we know causes pain in adults), they will cry and show signs
of distress, and often they will kick out or struggle (depends a bit on the
age; very young babies don't have an awful lot of muscular control, so
aren't very good at kicking or struggling). If you then use a local
anaesthetic (one which we know works on adults) at the site of the
needle-stick, their distress is immediately reduced, they generally stop
crying, stop struggling, stop kicking out, and so on.
If you compare this to the way they react to a fear-inducing stimulus, such
as a loud bang, there are clear differences; administering local anaesthetic
after a loud bang doesn't reduce their distress, even after the "fearful
event" has passed and is no longer present.

Now, neurologists, human biologists, medical doctors and developmental
psychologists all accept this as evidence that babies feel pain.
Do you accept it as evidence that babies feel pain?

H


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Fish dont have ethical feet it doesnt mean they cant move- was Re: Ethical feet
    ... >>> As soon as we've established what sort of evidence would convince you, ... that would tell us whether fish feel pain or ... So in your profession what would, prove to you that babies ...
    (uk.people.gothic)
  • Re: OT - Serious Prayer Request
    ... I can only imagine the pain for your DS and his SO. ... Isn't there anyone at all that can pick your DH up from the airport? ... my house is not a "strange place". ... All the babies have ...
    (rec.crafts.textiles.quilting)
  • Re: Fish dont have ethical feet it doesnt mean they cant move- was Re: Ethical feet
    ... >> Why not ask the professionals in the field. ... > trying to convince you that an increased heart-rate is proof of pain, ... try a really easy one first that is prove to me that babies ... > they weren't struggling or crying (because they'd been injected with ...
    (uk.people.gothic)
  • Re: Fish dont have ethical feet it doesnt mean they cant move- was Re: Ethical feet
    ... question is that most of the sites are biased; they're either Animal Rights ... people saying that of course the poor fluffy bunnies feel pain and anyone ... >> You know they used to believe that babies didn't feel pain? ... >> they weren't struggling or crying (because they'd been injected with ...
    (uk.people.gothic)
  • Re: Options for bedrooms?
    ... Switch rooms with the baby and put 2 babies in the big room or try and shove ... It would be a pain to change rooms, but probably less of a pain than having ... in the basement would be the biggest pain ever. ...
    (misc.kids)