Re: Fish don't have ethical feet it doesn't mean they can't move- was Re: Ethical feet


"H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:3k1ipeFrsor3U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:dbg17e$i25$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> "H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:3jnmnoFq3pnhU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Because they can't tell me what _you_ would accept; they could tell me
>>> what _they_ accept, but you've made it clear that that's irrelevant to
>>> you.
>> I would listen to professionals, not veggies with a degree in recycling
>> and have
>> a chip on their shoulder about animal rights and plant bombs under
>> peoples cars.
>
> Excellent; me too. one of the problems with researching this sort of
> question is that most of the sites are biased; they're either Animal
> Rights people saying that of course the poor fluffy bunnies feel pain and
> anyone who says not is an evil psychopathic murderer who gets pleasure out
> of the suffering of other creatures, or they're fishermen who say that of
> course fish don't feel pain, what do you think they are, psychopaths who
> get pleasure form other creatures' suffering?
It's a job, like herding students.

> Finding an unbiased and intelligent source of information in amongst all
> that can be tricky.

Yep, and I'm not prepared to take a person serioulsy if they expect me
to believe pain is experinced by a wound, pain comes from the mind,
it is made up in the mind, you need the receptors in the brain to feel pain,
these receptors have to recieve the signal from the wound.
What you need to do is find this mechanism, you need to find the parts
that send the message and where it is sent to and what happenes when it gets
there.


>>> Prove _what_, Dave? I'm not stating a case here, I'm asking you to give
>>> me some examples of behaviours which would prove that fish feel pain, or
>>> that they don't.
>> I haven't seen such behaviours that can't be put down to distress or
>> illness.
>
> But can you imagine any, hypothetically?
Yes like aliens with a dozen heads, doesn't mean they exist though.

>
>>> yes, I know, and you _keep_ repeating that, for some reason. I'm not
>>> trying to convince you that an increased heart-rate is proof of pain,
>>> I'm trying to find out from you what _would_ be proof of pain.
>> That's the problem I don't know of anything.
>> As I said it's liek asking you what would be requird for you
>> to believe that anything from a rock to a goth comes from earth rather
>> than mars.
>> It's all very well to say run tests but what will they mean.
>
> *heh* I've already answered that question, haven't I?
No, you invented tests that don't prove anything.



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Hey Curt: Behavioral Systems Theory
    ... Those termns refer to "qualia", which are beyond direct observation.** In humans, it's often possible to learn to discriminate "fear" and "pain", because humans talk enough so that you can tell which they experience as what. ... To some extent, analogous behaviours in other mammals may be characterised as "fear" and "pain," which has its uses, especially if the animals happen to be your pets. ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Hey Curt: Behavioral Systems Theory
    ... 3rd-rate country singers' songs about hurtin' are themselves painful stimuli. ... Those termns refer to "qualia", which are beyond direct observation.** In humans, it's often possible to learn to discriminate "fear" and "pain", because humans talk enough so that you can tell which they experience as what. ... To some extent, analogous behaviours in other mammals may be characterised as "fear" and "pain," which has its uses, especially if the animals happen to be your pets. ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Fish dont have ethical feet it doesnt mean they cant move- was Re: Ethical feet
    ... What behaviours might there be that could not be eliminated? ... might there be in fish which might be evidence of pain, ... or just distress or discomfort? ...
    (uk.people.gothic)
  • Re: Hey Curt: Behavioral Systems Theory
    ... >> stimuli"? ... > A painful stimulus is one that triggers hurtin' behaviour. ... > when describing avoidance behaviours. ... hypothesis may be investigated using the example of "awareness of pain," (or ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Fish dont have ethical feet it doesnt mean they cant move- was Re: Ethical feet
    ... >> The nerves or neurons or receptors which spread through the whole of our ... > Yes they can be involved in deciding to indicate where a pain can ... >> experimental evidence, but the only evidence you have tried to put ... You have certainly gone on and on about bulls, ...
    (uk.people.gothic)