Re: Fish don't have ethical feet it doesn't mean they can't move- was Re: Ethical feet


"H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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> "whisky-dave" <whisky-dave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>> "H Duffy" <Hester_Duffy_nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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>>> *heh* That's generally because if you're asleep and you start suffering
>>> pain, you wake up; I've certainly been woken up by the pain of cramp in
>>> my leg.
>> Because it sends signals to the brain it's not because there's a damaged
>> area.
>
> I have a feeling cramp actually does involve tissue damage, but I could be
> wrong.
I thought it was something to do with musacle tension, putting your foot
on a cold surface seems to help.

>In either case, I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, the brain is
>implicated (in humans) in the perception of pain. So what?
Fish brains and human braiins are very different do not assume they work
things
out in the same way.

>That doesn't mean that tissue damage isn't _also_ implicated in the
>perception or transmission of pain, does it?
Tissue damged goes on throught our lives adn the lives of most living
creatures
damaged tissue does not always have to result in pain.


>>> That's phantom pain; that doesn't mean all pain is phantom pain.
>> But it does show how the brains sees bain it invents it.
>
> No, it shows that the brain _can_ invent pain. That quite obviously
> doesn't mean that all pain is invented by the brain, does it?
Why not.
If you can stop pain by injecting things while there's still tissue damage
then you must recognised that tissue damage does not equal pain.
Theer's a flat fish that starts life as a normal fish then within a week
it's eyes
get moved across it's body and it turns into a flat fish,
looks pretty painful to me too.
The way to stop pain is to stop the signals reaching the parts that give
pain.


>If I chop your hand off, it'll hurt, not because the brain is inventing a
>phantom pain, but because I've just chopped your hand off, causing severe
>tissue damage and nerve damage.

Not if you used an anthstetic whose job it is not to stop tissue damage
but to stop the transmission of pain.

>>> OK, so for example, Substance P which is implicated in pain transmission
>>> in humans and other vertebrates; it is also found in some fish,
>>> suggesting that the neurochemical process of pain transmission is
>>> occurring.
>>> http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalwelfare/Fish%20pain/Neurology.htm
>>> That's the sort of evidence you want?
>>
>> That would do
>
> So you're satisfied with that?
>
> but I'm not forgeting the lines'
>> http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalwelfare/Fish%20pain/Pain.htm
>> The Case Against the Experience of Pain in the Fish
>>
>> James Rose of the University of Wyoming has put forth a strong argument
>> for the inability of fish to experience pain that relies on analogy
>> between human and fish neuroanatomy.
>
>
> I assume you read the bit further dowen about how that analogy doesn't
> actually hold up?

But it didn't really make that much sense, no real evidence was shown
to support that theory of why the anology didn't hold up,
maybe you'd care to post that section.


>>> Right, which is why using an pain-blocking anaesthetic is a good way to
>>> determine whether the reactions are caused by pain, or by something
>>> else.
>>> Mind you, the (biased and inaccurate) piece of evidence you've shown
>>> says that fish are too primitive for emotional distress. Does that mean
>>> you'd rule out emotional distress as a possible cause for reactions in
>>> fish?
>>
>>
>>
>> What DO YOU mean by emotional distress, do you think fish worry
>>
>> about whose headlining WGW ?
>
> No I don't. You said that if fish react to damage, their reaction could be
> caused by distress rather than pain. So could you explain what that means?
> What is this distress you talk about?
So why use the term emotional distress it wasn't anything I was planning on
using
as evidence either way, because I'm not sure how you'd relate emotions to
pain
in humans let alone fish.
Could you find me a cite that showns tuissue damaged due to the pain of
an emotional distress, and I don't mean some goff slashing their wrists
because
SoM won't play WGW.




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