Re: Bloody Ebay and Paypal!

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:26:13 +0000, Spacker
<spacker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Paul <ihate@xxxxxxxx> wrote:


On Tue, 3 Mar 2009 19:50:54 -0000, "Niel J Humphreys"
<admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Fran" <usenet1304@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:gojup7$dki$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Niel J Humphreys" <admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message news:gojuda$lj4$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I think Spacker, in one of his lucid moments, was making a quite valid
point. What happens to the money if buyer received it but leaves neg
feedback? Obviously would not be released but would be unfair to return
it to the buyer who would then have the item and the refund, possibly
fraudulently.

I would imagine it would then just roll over to the standard dispuet
procedure where the buyer would be asked to specify why they negged -
item not received or not as described - and the relevent dispute
procedure would ensure as per normal?


Read the EBay Community Board about PayPal and prepare to be appalled.
There are sellers to whom that very thing happened, and PreyPal sat on the
money. In some cases, forever.....

Basically, PreyPal classed it as some sort of SNAD, required that it be
put right, and there was no way of putting it right. So they sat on the
funds. All of them. Not just that transaction.


Then those sellers should be aware of this - which does work. I know someone
who did a test case when they got a chargeback and got the funds released
within 7 days.
http://www.ukauctionhelp.co.uk/ppchargeback.php

Trouble is if that link is posted on the Ebay messageboards it is removed
almost immediately. :(

I simply love that page. So much so I'll be happy to pass it around
with impunity. So sue me PayPoop.

I have now closed both my Paypal account and Ebay account. Luckily I
was able to get out with my money before they slapped my backside.

I have been using Amazon marketplace to sell for about a year now.
Both as a buyer and seller, they are excellent.

Then why sell on ebay?

Some things you cannot sell on Amazon. *BURBS* for example!! lol and
others the price is too low, or too many on offer already. Ebay was
just another string to the bow, but not at ANY cost. The price is too
high to deal with those jerks and their supporters.



*******************************************************

Give Ebay and Paypal a kick up the arse

http://www.ukauctionhelp.co.uk/ppchargeback.php

Sick of Paypal taking liberties & charge backs - here is what you can
do

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following has been dug up from the eBay forums....
I have done all that I can in dealing with Ebay before writing listing
with some regret. Unfortunately, like most of the other professional
sellers I know on Ebay, I have become exceptionally frustrated &
disillusioned with the services offered by Paypal. The cosy
relationship with Ebay & the general acceptance of the requirement to
offer Paypal has given them an unworkable position of strength. An
increasing number of unfair & unjust decisions that are inadequately
explained have resulted in many, many lost hours of effort & in some
cases goods or cash as well.

The negative press that occurs in relation to the small percentage of
ebay transactions that are fraudulent is also a major contributor to
the problem. I have as much as had an admission from Paypal that they
are aware that decisions are often made against sellers in an effort
to buoy confidence among buyers. Unfortunately for sellers, we not
only lose out as a result, but also are the community that generate
ALL their revenue, with little or no respect in spite of this.I have
for a large number of years worked in the IT industry providing
professional services to the major players in the UK Financial
Services Industry. As a result of my experience I am fairly well
versed in legislation & proper procedure. The gaps in my own knowledge
are fortunately filled by a close relative that is a stockbroker with
Barclays.

This has helped me on two previous occasions where despite the bullish
nature of the Paypal call centre staff, they have had to reverse
decisions as a result of acting illegally In both these serious cases
Paypal were in the eyes of the law "accessory to fraud". Despite this
they maintained their rigid stance up to the 11th hour, & refused to
either return my charge backed payment or admit their role in the
fraud. I am not the only person to have pushed to this level, but
unfortunately the prohibitive process they put in place, using fax &
slow servers on "disputes" prevents many more seeking a fair decision.
Despite the numbers being a fraction of the number of unhappy sellers
& incorrect decisions it is still enough that the Financial Services
Agency & their sub branch Financial Services Ombudsman are paying
particular note to the complaints.

NOW FOR THE VERY IMPORTANT PART. The process of going to the Ombudsman
is a bit of a pain, but I have included an excellent guide below that
was taken from a posting made by boringmoo

It did however omit a very very important & little known fact
regarding this process. In order to provide financial services within
the UK they require operating under the terms of the FSA that includes
the requirement to mediate through the ombudsman service. The members
on a case-by-case basis fund the service. As the bulk of FSA members
provide loans, credit, banking etc they generate a fairly small number
of complaints relating to typically greater sums. Due to this the
minimum case administration fee is currently set at £360, which must
be paid by Paypal regardless of outcome.

That’s right, regardless of whether a decision is made in the
complainants favour or not, Paypal is required to pay the Ombudsman a
minimum of £360 for each & EVERY case investigated.
I have threatened on many occasions to put this information into the
public domain when fighting over decisions with Paypal, but never felt
driven to act. However recently they have become worse & worse & I am
sure that there is many other sellers out there are feeling the same
way. It is clear that the threat has not been adequate in order to
force some changes, so I implore you to raise each & every case with
FSO, as I will be doing in the future. This entirely LEGAL action will
hopefully impact the pocket of Paypal enough to take a serious review
of how they operate & treat their PAYING customers.

PROCESS! If you believe Paypal have taken any actions that have had
the effect of costing you money you may follow the procedure below.
(Examples include, Refunds to Buyers for goods properly delivered in
good faith (including those covered by COP, RD or SD irrespective of
whether paypal acknowledge postage). Payments being reversed from your
account without full details and reasons supplied. Or "OBFUSCATION".
This is where any undue delay by Paypal in resolving any issue means
that you are effectively COST money by Pay pal’s action of depriving
you of your funds, your income and in effect increasing any
consequential costs. Overdrafts, Bank fees or interest)


Keep all Email contacts between you and Paypal regarding the
transaction(s). (This includes any Buyer Purchase mails, Paypal
Payment Notifications, and dispatch notifications between you and
customer)

Keep all "Proof of posting" This includes "Certificate of Postings"
stamped by post office, Recorded deliveries, Special deliveries,
Courier collection notes etc. Even Ebay FEEDBACK from the customer
counts towards the balance of probabilities in a UK court of law when
Proof of delivery is judged. Irrespective of Paypal policy on this
matter. They have to abide by UK Law.

Keep dates, times and Contact details of all Phone conversations you
have had between yourself and Paypal, This Means you MUST get FIRST
AND SURNAME of the person you speak to. Don't be fobbed off with a
first name.

After Paypal have reversed a transaction. Or have taken more than a
week to finalise their investigation after notifying you of a pending
reversal (this is where the balance is removed from your account but
not completely reversed. meaning that they have the benefit of the
funds and any short term interest they might earn on it. before they
credit it to you or refund to seller) by doing this they may be
depriving you of money due to you and increasing their income.
Which is against the law.
So call the following FSA help line on: 0845 606 1234
Website is: http://www.fsa.gov.uk/consumer/contact/index.html
Explain your issue with Paypal To the FSA. (They seem quite willing to
listen). But will basically tell you to do this.

Write to the following name and address registered with and supplied
by the uk fsa.
David Clark
Compliance Officer
Paypal (Europe) Ltd
Hopham House
1 Heron Square
Richmond
Surrey
TW9 1J
PHONE: (Also supplied by FSA) 0870 7307 191 (but don’t bother. you
will need as much in black and white at this stage for later action as
you can gather)

In your letter, be sure to mention that you are contacting them on the
advice of the FSA and mention as much of the detail of your claim and
reasons for dissatisfaction with their service in this instance.

(Also include a photocopy or scan of your proof of postage at this
stage) (If it is a Royal Mail Proof of posting (whether or not
delivery details are available “on-line” (putting exact delivery
details on-line is a current breach of the DPA (Data Protection Act)
which is why RM do not do it)) and Paypal have refunded to customer
without asking for or acknowledging an independent Royal Mail
investigation regarding the delivery, then they have failed “Due
Diligence” on their part in their investigation of your delivery.
And on balance (whether goods were or WERE NOT delivered) are likely
to be ruled against if the matter ever came to court.


PAYPAL will have 5 Days in which to acknowledge you mail and a further
8 weeks (that bit sucks. but will help immensely in any Financial
Ombudsman Claim against them that you may make, if they exceed the
time period)

If Paypal respond and give you back the money they deducted PLUS an
amount you are happy with as compensation for your time and
inconvenience to this point. Then let it drop.
But you will appreciate that disputing even a £5.00 reversal can
effectively cost you hours of effort, phone calls and other costs.
So if you do not feel adequately compensated for all consequential
damages, you can continue to claim under Obfuscation (the definition
of this is any policy (including “corporate”) which appears to
prejudice against you by creating layers of red tap or delay
intentional or otherwise with the end aim of causing you to
prematurely give up your claim.) Basically: If you have sold
something.
Have reasonable proof of dispatch (and maybe also delivery) and Paypal
have reversed without a full investigation by the Third Party delivery
agent and have then delayed or ignored any recompense by 8 weeks. They
are causing you financial harm through no fault of your own.


If the outcome of your letter sent is not in your favour and you still
believe you have reasonable grounds for complaint, Then you should
complain to the FINACIAL OMBUDSMAN:
Website is: http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk
PHONE: 0845 080 1800

At this site you will find plenty of information on what to do next.
Including the form you will have to complete and post to the
Ombudsman. Please note, they will do nothing unless you have followed
the steps above! But if you have and you have the documentation to
prove it. Then Paypal will have to listen to them. If they don’t then
they will get their licence to trade in the UK suspended. HOWEVER big
an American concern they are.

The UK may be Treasure Island to offshore concerns. But while they are
here. They have to play by the rules. And if they do not. YOU DO HAVE
RIGHTS! And I’m assured that if you stick to your guns you will win.

Other resources of interest:
Citizens Advice Bureau
Legal Aid England/Wales
Legal Aid Scotland

Finally: While I appreciate that Paypal as an organization has done a
great deal of good for many UK sellers (especially related to ebay),
And while I too have benefited from their services (duly and
reasonably paid for by their transaction fees), this is no reason to
accept any arbitrarily judged losses that they may decide without
resorting to a proper investigation of ALL facts surrounding a
particular transaction.

We have rights and while they be the market leader. This book is only
to remind both you and them that those rights have to be acknowledged
by them. Last thing of all is. Even if you do file a complaint against
Paypal for specific transactions. As long as you are honest and are
not in breach of any of your personal and financial account details
registered with them, they are not allowed to suspend you from using
Paypal to accept Buyer payments or in any other way limit the normal
day to day running of your account with them.

The FSA would really love to hear about it if they do!

Origional Article by chaveboy

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Bloody Ebay and Paypal!
    ... What happens to the money if buyer received it but leaves neg ... Read the EBay Community Board about PayPal and prepare to be appalled. ... Proof of delivery is judged. ...
    (uk.people.consumers.ebay)
  • Re: Spoof email?
    ... Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings ... Buyer and seller agree on the transaction terms and a selling price. ... Escrow which are safer than WesternUnion Money Transfer. ...
    (uk.people.consumers.ebay)
  • Re: Can PayPal do this?
    ... damaged with absolutely no warning or without opening a dispute). ... that Ebay and PayPal were separate entities? ... You better make sure your bank account has enough money to cover the ... your buyer gets the money. ...
    (alt.marketing.online.ebay)
  • Re: WARNING: PayPal & Ebay
    ... Ebay and PayPal has started up to a 21 day hold on payments ... PayPal and eBay are working together to make payments for eBay items ... The buyer leaves you positive feedback on eBay. ... not sending product after getting their money, ...
    (rec.audio.tubes)
  • Re: Major help required
    ... Ok I sold a pram on ebay, described it accurately, buyer clicked the buy ... Had the buyer had the item delivered, with proof of delivery, you would have ... Unfortunately ebay is full of cocknosed buyers. ...
    (uk.people.consumers.ebay)
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