Re: Annual 9/11 horror fest
- From: aquachimp <aquachimp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
On Sep 10, 2:17 pm, "Andy Pandy" <spam8ti...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
"Fred X" <alexs...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:27:49 +0100, Andy Pandy
"AC" <x...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
The problem is the "why" bit. From what I've seen we only get to see the
western idea of "why". The "why" is bloody crucial, because with out
genuinely understanding it, we have no real hope of preventing the next
9/11, what ever that might be. Nothing I've seen in the media, thus far,
even approaches a complete and honest attempt at asking why.
Yes, and there are a lot of attempts at giving answers which are more a
reflection of the problem some Westerners have with their governments,
rather than addressing what the terrorists' issues actually are.
Particularly from thick left-wing journalists, there was one article
even mentioned Bush's refusal to sign the Kyoto protocol!
It's the complete lack of understanding of the religious element which
Westerners have difficulty with - they can only rationalise it in terms
"well their people are suffering because of the West's policies, they
be desperate, etc". Policies of the likes of the Saddam have caused far
suffering to Muslims than anything the West have done.
I did read one article at the time which was useful, written by a
Muslim academic, which squarely and unequivocally stated that the
was entirely religious and the belief in an eternity in paradise was the
motivation of the terrorists who carried out the attacks, and that their
reason for the belief that God would approve of such an attack was
acts like the stationing of US troops on Saudi soil ("Desert Shield") and
the subsequent invasion of Kuwait. Even though those acts were with the
consent and approval of the Saudis and Kuwaitis, and Saddam's regime was
hardly their ideal of an Islamic republic.
You didn't mention Israel's occupation of Palestine which is also a major
source of anger for Muslims and is mentioned in almost every video message
by Al Qaeda.
The article mentioned a lot of things AIRI, but the first Gulf war was one
of the major factors he highlighted as a cause for anger directed against
Encouragingly, the sales of the Qur'an in the West went up significantly
after 9/11, suggesting that there are people who want a genuine answer
why, rather than bullshit from clueless journalists who want to impose
their own pet "causes" on the terrorists.
So did these "clueless" journalists force those three recently convicted
terrorists to say that it was western forces in Iraq and Afghanistan that
motivated their attempts at terrorist attacks?
Eh? The article I mentioned above was written before that, but yes, it's
obviously the same principle - infidel troops invading Muslim countries. Or
in the case of Israel, infidels ruling what they see as a Muslim country.
That wasn't the point they are "clueless" about.
The point these "clueless" journalists just don't get is it's about
*religion*, not about suffering, not about oppression etc. Palestinians
living under Israeli rule didn't suffer in the same way as Kurds or Shi'ites
under Saddam's rule, one provokes the fundamentalists anger, the other
doesn't. Had the Saudis or another Muslim nation had a big enough army to do
exactly what the US and other Western countries did during the first Gulf
war, that again wouldn't have provoked their anger. It's about *who* does
it, not *what* is done.
The West's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan would provoke the anger of Al
Qaeda *regardless* of whether those actions increase or reduce the suffering
of the people in those countries and *regardless* of whether they lead to a
better or worse life for the people living there.
True, American tourists are not always the best ambassadors for their
country. I can recall that not so long ago they were viewed as loud,
charmless, self-centred, arrogant, dishonest, greedy, pig-ignorant
cunts who really thought the everyone else was the dirt beneath their
feet that they had some sort of God given right to order around and
belittle at will.
So it's "clueless" to
claim (as some do) that their anger was provoke by the suffering inflicted
on their people by the West's actions. Even if the likes of Al Qaeda use
such suffering in a one sided way to justify their actions and radicalise
their followers. That was the jist of the article I was referring to.
Something doesn't quite fit there.
If as you suggest the why leads back to religion, then that would have
If religion, faith, is the source of the reason, then the likes of al
Qaeda don't need to use the suffering you mention to radicalise their
followers. To justify their actions to others, yes.
What you imply is that there an existing perception the eyes of non
westerners that there is an account to be settled re: suffering, which
leads to a "why"
The Iranian reaction to the Iraq war was along the same lines - they hated
Saddam with a vengance, after a long and extremely bloody war with him, and
certainly wanted him overthrown, but they were against Western forces doing
The other point some Western journalists are "clueless" about is the
individual motivation for suicide attacks. That's really the more important
element of "why". They can only seem to rationalise it by assuming they are
desperate, they have nothing to live for etc. They just cannot comprehend
the *faith* these people have, the conviction that they are doing what God
wants, and the rewards they believe they will get when they die (yes,
including the virgins).
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