Re: Galloway dropped from Iraq War Question Time!


"Enzo Matrix" <enzo55@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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michael adams wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" <enzo55@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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michael adams wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" <enzo55@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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The population of Iraq has not had to suffer any great damage from
the former occupying forces.

<quote>
'Shock And Awe' Throttles Iraq
<quote>



"Shock and Awe" is a short term strategy intended to cripple the
infrastructure long enough for the enemy military to be neutralised.
Therefore it targets communications, power generation and
distribution and transport hubs. They may be some effect on the
civilian population, but it will be very short term, certainly no
more than a couple of weeks. There is no targetting of population
centres to cause large numbers of civilian casualties.

So, the civilian population has had to put up with no power and no
water for a few days - that gets them angry. The power and water is
soon restored but the anger remains.

...

So when exactly was the power and water restored ?

A reference would be useful.

You want one? Look for it yourself. Why should I find them

....

Because you made the claim that the infrastructure was quickly
restored. It wasn't and it still isn't.

....

when you'll just
refuse to believe them anyway?


....

The only reason you're refusing to provide a reference is simply
because you can't find one. Because there aren't any.

Any other lame exuse you care to come up with is just that. Lame.
And fools nobody.


....
The point of "shock and awe" is that it doesn't matter if the power etc is
restored in short order, because it ony has to be off for a short period
to
allow the allies to attain their goals. And rather than considering
Operation Iraqi Freedom, let's consider Operation Allied Force, the Kosovo
War. Strikes against the power infrastructure in Belgrade were successful
in
knocking out the power, but it was invariably restored within six hours or
so. And yes, the references are out there, but I can't be bothered finding
them while you just stick your head in the sand and ignore them.

....

We're not talking about Belgrade. We're talking about Iraq.

Trying to change the subject and widening your frame of reference
merely proves that you know you've lost on the substantive point.
You've been caught out spouting nonsense i.e that the Infrastructure
of Iraq was quickly restored after Shock and Awe.

If you could find one single reference in support of your claim
you'd post it on here. But you can't, because there aren't any.

That's one lie too far, even for right-wing US loony websites.

....


In no way do the population feel defeated.
On the other hand, take the case of a village which shelters a group
of insurgents who have just attacked a US convoy. Hit the house in
which they shelter with a Maverick or Paveway and they'll die. Maybe
a couple of villagers will as well. The rest of the villagers will
still support the insurgency.

...

"The rest of the villagers" will usually have no choice either way
and the insurgents aren't "dependant" on their support in any case.
They act like the Mafia or gangsters anywhere - they just take what
they want. If your average villager had the bottle to stand up to
these people he or she wouldn't still be living in a village.

We're told that everyone and his brother is running round in Iraq with
AK-47s

....

"We" ? Who's this "we" exactly.

Again, what are your sources for this ridiculous claim ?

And where exactly did they get all this weaponry ? Did they have
it during Saddam Hussein's rule ? Which would be rather strange
given that SH was reputedly such a tyrant. And if they didn't
where exactly did they get these weapons from ? Didn't your friends
the Americans notice all these truckloads of AK-47's being brought
over the border presumably, and distributed to all and sundry ?

....

and that the insurgents are a very small part of the population.

....

So who exactly is counting them ?

Or as I suspect are you again simply making it up as you go along ?

....

Therefore,

....

Therefore nothing. First you need to provide some evidence to
support your claims.

Then and only then would you be justified in trying to construct some
kind of feeble argument - capable of withstanding say around 5 seconds
of close examination I'd guess, before that too comes crashing down around
your ears.


....

the villagers could easily provide an overwhelming group to
prevent access to their village by the insurgents. But they don't because
deep down they've swallowed the propaganda that the insurgents feed them
and
they believe that they are still fighting an occupation force, and that
the
insurgents are their freedom fighters, rather than the sectarian predators
that they really are.

The insurgents are telling them that the jihad they are fighting is
glorious.

...

Are they really ? And how do you know that ? Visit Iraq a lot do you?
For your information the British, and the US less so until lately have
always been resented by the Arabs. Resentment which often turned to
outright hatred. I suggest you check out the history of Egypt before Nasser
arrived on the scene.

...

They need to be re-educated so that they understand what war is
*really* like. It's not in the least bit glorious. Collective
punishment for harbouring terrorists would prove that to them.

....

After having been shat on by the backstabbing British even since
the Sykes Picot pact, I very much doubt any Arabs are in need of
any lessons from the likes of you, or the morons to whom you give
your wholehearted support.

....


But, if you attack the house where they are sheltered with a
Paveway, hit the local water purification and power distribution
nodes with other Paveways and then napalm the resdidential area
around the "safe" house, killing 15% of the population of the
village in the process, they'll think twice about sheltering
terrorists in the future. Come back every week or so and take out
the water and power plants again, just as they are being brought
back on line and the villagers will soon get weary of the war and
start to feel defeated. *That's* what these people understand and
that is the way to beat them

...

The "master plan" adopted in Vietnam I believe. Sorry I've forgotten
the result of that one - oh yes

Viet Cong 1 U.S.A 0


Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! *Wrong* !

The Vietnam war was ended by the Treaty of Paris, with South Vietnam
intact
and independent.

You're either trolling or you've been brainwashed.

<quote>

Chaos, unrest, and panic ensued as hysterical South Vietnamese
officials and civilians scrambled to leave Saigon. American
helicopters began evacuating both U.S. and South Vietnamese
citizens from the U.S. embassy. The evacuations had been delayed
until the last possible moment due to U.S. Ambassador Graham
Martin's belief that Saigon could be held and that a political
settlement could be reached with the communists.

In the U.S., South Vietnam was now perceived as doomed. President
Ford had given a televised speech on April 23, declaring the end
of both the Vietnam War and of all U.S. aid to Saigon. The
evacuations continued day and night, as North Vietnamese tanks
breached defenses on the outskirts of the city. In the early
morning hours of 30 April, the last U.S. Marines evacuated the
embassy roof by helicopter, as civilians swamped the embassy
perimeter and poured into the grounds. Many of them had been
employed by the Americans and were now left to their fate.


Vietnam (Vietnamese: Vi?t Nam), officially the Socialist Republic
of Vietnam, is the easternmost nation on the Indochina Peninsula.
It borders China to the north, Laos to the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Vietnam

<quote>

The US tactic of taking the war to the North Vietnamese
population (Rolling Thunder) and the collective punishment of south
vietnamese rebels who supported the VC eventually broke the will of the NV
government who allowed the UN to broker the peace treaty.

The US won that one, contrary to left-wing and liberal ideology.

....

Shame no one told Gerald Ford that at the time. Or are you saying he
was lying ?

....

The only problem was that the US public were also war-weary and they
demanded withdrawal from Vietnam. Once the withdrawal of US forces was
complete, the NV simply broke the Treaty of Paris and invaded again. There
was little to prevent them this time as US public opinion wouldn't stand
for
re-engagement and the UN refused to intervene. So what's new?


I haven't even bothered to address other absurdities such as the
"surgical strike" myth etc. Or the fact that whetever you do the
"Country formerly known as Iraq" will still contains substantial
populations of Shia and Sunni Moslems and Kurds all of whom
hate each others throats. And who thus need to be ruled with
an iron hand - so it would seem. Except you and your yank mates
hanged the iron hand a few weeks ago.

I wasn't there, as you well know. You have to be careful with hyperbole.
Sometimes it just makes you sound silly.

....

But not quite as silly as claiming that -

a) The infrastructure of Iraq was rapidly restored afer Shock and Awe
b) Most of the Iraqi population are armed with AK 47's
c) The US won the Vietnam War

One of those on its own would be enough. Claiming all three
elevates the concept of silliness to an entirely new
dimension. More like "deranged" in actual fact.


From the news reports it seems that there were no Americans there either,
otherwise the execution may have been carried out with a modicum of
decorum.
But then, why should you pay any attention to the truth? You haven't done
so, so far.


The truth is that if Great Britain had acceeded to claims for an
independent Kurdistan in 1919, instead of bombing the Kurdish
tribesmen in the North of Iraq into submission, Saddam Hussein would
never have had any reason to gas any Kurds later on.

So presumably they would have had to come up with another excuse to get
him out of the way.



michael adams

....

--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.






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