Re: Len Deighton evening, BBC4 Saturday


"sofa spud" <Comfiest@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dprl98$8ru$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "michael adams" <mjadams25@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:42d21rF1igj8jU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > "sofa spud" <Comfiest@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:dpr6th$cms$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > "MH" <blah@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > news:42ch17F1iccphU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Good evening's entertainment from BBC4 last night.
> > > >
> > > > Watching "Billion Dollar Brain", I couldn't help but notice
> > > > the considerable similarities between the mad megalomaniac
> > > > General Midwinter and our own self-styled Leader Of The
> > > > Free World, George W Bush.
> > > >
> > > > Both characters seem to think they are on God-driven missions
> > > > to impose "freedom" on people in foreign lands (whether it is
> > > > wanted or not).
> > > >
> > > > The trouble is, Tony Blair is no Harry Palmer....
> > > >
> > > > :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Using that mind set, I wonder why when the Berlin wall was up why
> > > folk got shot trying to get out or why they had gulags for the tens
> > > of thousands who spoke out against it.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > The Soviet Union who lost 10 million dead fighting the Germans in WWII
> > compared with 700,000 combined UK and US dead, were less inclined to
> > be forgiving of German folk or rather Volk , than the US especially.
> > The US did well economically out of the War, the only country to do so.
> > The UK was still paying off War debts to the US until the mid 50's which
> > the US was then using to bankroll West Germany.
> >
> > ...
>
>
> This is largely irrelevant - look to the countries that ended up behind
the
> iron curtain. Dreaful things happened there , the russains were right
> bastards.

....

The Cold War was a giant confidence trick. That's generally agreed.
But it was as much in the interests of the Military Industrial Complex
in the US as anyone. If not more so as it eventualy sunk the USSR.
Stalin was a psycopath and Paranoid, but the continued presence
of UK and US troops in West Germany didn't exactly help
matters.

....





>
> >
> > > Also that those places in the world without freedom always have
> > populations
> > > that will die trying to get into places like the UK and USA - I don't
> see
> > UK
> > > or European citizens fighting to get into some of the less free or
> > > democratic countries.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > The UK and the Europeans colonised all those countries in the last
> > two centuries. They bled them dry of resources to the extent it was
> > cheaper to then give to them their "freedom". Without providing them
with
> > a democratic infrastructure in place the Colonies reverted to the
> > power structures they'd had before colonisation. Except in those
> > ex-colonies where the likes of Mark Thatcher prefferred to set
> > up home anyway. No worries for the likes of Mark.
> >
> >
>
> Bit of a generalisation there , much work went into preparing the
countries
> for independance but the communists in their dreams of a communist world
> flooded many of these countries with weapons, bought nothing but misery
and
> hardship - North and South Korea spring to mind .

....

Trying to influence the affairs of countries on the borders of
Communist China is fooldhardy at the best of times. It's the
inhabitants of those countries that will suffer in the end.

Communism has litle to do with what happened in Africa -
over and above the fact that democracy evolved over centuries
in Europe and latterly the US and took account of the prevailing
circumstances. To say that the present Western model - Florida
voting nmachines ninwithstanding - should fit equally well
in an immediate post Colonial Situation is a bit presumptuous.
The best that could have happened was locals brought into
Government over the poreceding decades. Not cut and run
leaving power in the hands of the most suitable candidates
as judged by the Colonial Office or whoever. Jomo Kenyatta
was Britain's chosen candidate in Kenya just as Mandela was
in SA. While both were still in prison. Mandela was protected
from ANC assasination on more than one occasion. Allegedly.

....

Vietnamese boat people totals snipped.

....
> >
> > ...
>
> But their countries had defated the evil USA weren't they all meant to be
> delighted?

....

But the Saigon regime didn't defeat the USA.

As with Korea, the USA were meddling on China's doorstep, but
the US weren't the ones to suffer.


....

>
>
> >
> > That compares with approx 200,000 killed by Indonesia in their totally
> > illegal takeover of East Timor. Which was toptally ignored - even
> > sanctioned by the West.
> >
>
> Well the power vacuum left by the collapse of the Portugese empire meant
> that take over by the rest of the isalnd (Indonesia) was rather a foregone
> conclusion , Who was going to occupy east Timor to stop the Indonesians
> given its an Indonesian Island split in two?
>

...

East Timor could have been autonoumous. There are plenty of precedents
for split islands. Especialy as the East Timorese are predominently
Catholic anyway unlike the Muslim Indonesians. Nobody seruously defends
that any more anyway - now it's in the World spotlight.

The most criminal bit was the way it was covered up.

....


> > That's the same Indonsia which has always been one of the U.K Arms
> > Industry's best customers, and the same Indonesian dictatorship where
> > many U.K citizens work, and the same East Timor that nobody wanted to
> > know about.
> >
> > ..
>
> What would you have happen? Even if we didn't sell a few bits of Kit they
> wouldn't be different . If it wasn't the yanks it would have been the
> Russians and believe me it would have been a lot worse with them as best
> buddies. A case of RealPolitiK if ever there was one.

....

It's hypocritical that's why.

Indonesia is and was no more democracy than is Iraq.

Only it doesn't get vilified because its not in the West's intersts
to do so.

....


> > Others go to 300,000
> >
> >
> Very sad but what would you have "the west" do? why is it the "west's"
fault
> . Would a communist regime be better?
>
> The problem here is that much of the corruption of the third world , the
> poverty etc cannot be laid at our door for much longer , it has to be
> realised that the US is probably the most benign superpower in history .
If
> it was there god know what would happen - do you see the chinese giving a
> *** about anyone? Look at Africa , the world would like it to sort its
own
> problems out but it can't and won't , do you imagine a Chinese world
number
> 1 power giving a damn? .
>
> There is some idea the "if only the yanks disappeared" then all would be
> fine . Noone ever thinks of the alternatives.
>

....

Why does anyone have to intervene anywhere ?

One reason why regimes are oppressive in some places and not in others
is often down to wealth. The Western Colonial powers have already
accumulated all the wealth they need - or killed of all their Indians
and/or Aborigines with bullets or disease. So internally there's less
squabbling for resources - everyone gets a fair whack and there's less need
for repression. In client states such as Iraq or some of the African
states that same colonial legacy leads on to corruption. Western
Oil Companies or whoever needed and still need to deal with a top
man they can rely on and buy off. The more repressive the better.

In many circumstances Democracy is simply a luxury like motorways or
having an electric supply. But even then the Press can only be so
"free". Democracy in an advanced industrial society with any number of
competing interest groups can only withstand so much scrutiny,
before the hypocrisy and bull*** comes floating to the surface.
Its all a "performance". Paxman, Humphrys, whoever.



michael adams

....








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