Re: It seems to be very quiet in here....at the moment!

On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:09:22 +0000, Chris H wrote:

Johnny wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:38:49 +0000, Chris H wrote:

Johnny wrote:
I know all that. I was making a point about the unfortunate name
of the book. Which you missed apparently.

I for one did not miss your point.
I have to agree with you the use of that term is misleading. It's a
sort of short hand.

I didn't miss his point either. I just didn't totally agree with the
argument.

In my experience, I see bad engineering all the time. It's mostly
still engineering, although there is a broad range between that
which is inadequately engineered and that where the principles of
engineering were completely absent. Science is the same and reading
the book might improve your understanding of that differentiation.
Johnny is basing his comment on the extremes, but I am referring to
subtleties.

Well, to put my argument in terms you might appreciate, I would
suggest that if an engineering project 'where the principles of
engineering were completely absent' is not engineering.

You're describing the extreme again.

I'm beginning to see Sleepalot's point of view.

You really should have kept reading. I pointed out you engineers do not
have to put up with what we scientists do - an industry devoted to
rubbishing your work. It seems extreme to you but it's reality to us.

You forget that I am a Metallurgist and Engineer. I see both.

My point is, as a practising engineer, that the term bad ___ is valid
because there is _best_ _practice_ and there is general practice. A
point that the book explores well and you need to read it before making
such sweeping statements. Therefore there is best practice and the rest.
The rest being bad.

There's no evidence of your scientific nature. Claim to be a scientist
all you want. But you appear to live and work and think in 'engineering'.

The original debate here is about 'bad science'. I say it perpetuates a
myth. It's not doing anyone any good in the long run to have people
believe there is such a thing. I say call it what it really is: fraud or
bad journalism (I'm sure we can all agree that there really is bad
journalism!).

My analogy to 'bad engineering' seems beyond you because you can't get
past your engineer's indoctrination. 'Best practices' is an engineering
construct - it's not useful in science. 'Best practices' helps you not
make mistakes on your way to an expected result. We're studying the
unknown. Totally different. Why you would want to use the fact that 'best
practices' exists to justify a concept of 'bad engineering' is well
beyond me but if it makes you happy, I'll start spreading the news that
even engineers think some of their professional work is bad.

It certainly has absolutely no bearing on the use of the term 'bad
science'.

Johnny-not-seeing-your-scientific-side-at-all
.

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