Re: Brave Israeli Soldiers


"Ret." <xxx> wrote in message
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The Todal wrote:
"Ret." <xxx> wrote in message
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judith wrote:
On 20 Jan 2009 22:01:04 GMT, fburton@xxxxxxx (Francis Burton) wrote:

In article <AN-dnYx737xDlevUnZ2dnUVZ8rydnZ2d@xxxxxxxxx>, Ret. <xxx>
wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/gaza-israel-samouni-family

Soldiers are, very often, not the brightest nor the most moral of
human beings. Soldiers from all countries will be guilty of
identical 'offences' - not least ours.

One would have though (perhaps) that they would have been given
strict orders not to do anything like that, because it would
reflect badly on Israel and/or the IDF. Did those in charge really
not consider this possibility?

Take a look also at some of the banners carried by muslim
protesters calling for the deaths of all 'infidels'.

That is rather different, imho.

Francis


Perhaps that's why the international press were not allowed in.

Briefing:

"Right we - that means you - are going to teach these mothers a
lesson - the gloves are off. Anything goes - just don't get
caught". "Please Sir - can we fire phosphorus in to houses""

"Of course you can - just say that you saw someone firing from it.
The press or anyone else who is independant aren't there to witness
it"

And is this any different to this:

"UK armed forces in Iraq have shot and killed Iraqi civilians,
including an eight-year-old girl and a guest at a wedding
celebration, in situations where there was no apparent threat to
themselves or others, says a new report from Amnesty International."

or this:

"Killings by UK armed forces, in situations where they should not be
using lethal force, are examined in secrecy and behind closed doors.
Instead of the UK armed forces deciding whether to investigate
themselves when people are killed, there must be a full, impartial
and civilian-led investigation into all allegations of killings by
UK troops." or this:

"It details numerous killings by UK armed forces and armed groups.
One such case is that of eight-year-old Hanan Saleh Matrud,
reportedly shot by a soldier from B Company of the First Battalion
of the King's Regiment in August 2003. An eyewitness disputes the UK
army's claim that she may have been hit accidentally by a warning
shot. He told Amnesty International that Hanan was killed when a
soldier aimed and fired a shot at her from around 60 metres away."



From this site:
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/amnesty.htm

Now, I'm not suggesting that what Israeli's have done is 'ok'
because we Brits do exactly the same sort of things. I'm merely
pointing out that the Israeli forces are no worse than ours in
relation to committing atrocities.

You are, however, wrong.

Both British forces and American forces are undoubtedly guilty of
negligently killing the occasional wedding party, mistakenly (and
negligently) identified from a great height as a group of enemy
combatants. We may also have killed innocent civilians when invading
Iraq or Afghanistan and fighting well armed troops, street by street,
to capture a town or city. What we haven't done is to repeatedly bomb
hospitals, schools and residential buildings on the pretext that by
doing so we are picking off a handful of enemy troops who are
believed to be hiding somewhere there, knowing full well that the
deaths and injuries to civilians will on each occasion exceed the
number of likely enemies killed.

I don't believe that anyone seriously believes that Hamas do *not* use
residential areas as shields

I seriously believe that they do not.

However, that's because I regard Israel's use of the word "shields" as
dishonest and cynical. Their policy is that if an enemy is hiding behind
an innocent civilian, you shoot both. That is effectively the way they have
run this war. Most people would regard "human shield" as meaning that the
life of the innocent person would be preserved.


, do not store munitions in mosques and
hospitals, etc.

That's largely bollocks as well, I'm afraid. Why on earth do you accept it
so unquestioningly? Time and time again the UN and the Red Cross have
reported that buildings of this sort have been destroyed and there is no
evidence of any munitions stored there. Yes, inevitably it must happen very
occasionally but you'll have a job to find any documented account of such a
thing from reliable sources. Reporters on the ground do not conceal the
facts - if they see such things going on, they report them. Only Israel
would regard reporters as subversives and traitors who conceal Hamas crimes.

The question is: If those being injured by rockets fired by Hamas do not
believe that any meaningful dialogue can be undertaken with a terrorist
group whose sole aim is their complete destruction, just *how* do you
fight back and attempt to prevent those rockets being fired?

You find the individuals who are firing the rockets and arrest or kill them.
It's a policy that Israel has pursued over the years and it has resulted in
what was arguably an acceptable ratio of guilty to innocent people killed
during such operations. The Gaza massacre has not produced any significant
step forward. It has not wiped out a large proportion of Hamas fighters or
Hamas weapons. No sensible military planner would have expected it to.
There would probably have been a belief that the civilians of Gaza would
blame Hamas for Israel's reign of terror and expel Hamas from their
neighbourhood, but that would have been a naive and stupid gamble and no
basis on which to run a military campaign.


.

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