Re: Menezes - sixth day of deliberations.

In message <6qerl7Fc4r2iU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, The Todal <deadmailbox@xxxxxxxx> writes

"The Todal" <deadmailbox@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:6qdgjjFc6sgrU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"You should return a verdict of lawful killing if you are satisfied of two
matters on the balance of probabilities: (a) that at the time they fired,
Charlie 2 and Charlie 12 honestly believed that Mr de Menezes represented
an imminent mortal danger to them and/or others around them; and (b) that
they used no more force than was reasonably necessary in the circumstances
as they honestly believed them to be."

An open verdict therefore means that the jury do not accept both (a) and
(b) but they probably won't specifically say whether they believe (a).

If the jury disbelieve (a) and if the police gunmen didn't have that
honest belief, I'm not clear why there can't be a verdict of unlawful
killing. I daresay it's my fault for not understanding the law. For a
while, I thought I understood the coroner's train of thought.

I suppose the coroner's thinking must be that even if the jury don't believe
that the police gunmen had that honest belief (that the victim represented
an imminent mortal danger to them) it would not be open to them to make such
a finding "beyond reasonable doubt" which is the test.

Except that as your quote above shows, that is *not* the test the coroner set. He said they should return a verdict of lawful killing only if they are satisfied on the balance of probabilities that the gunmen had that reasonable belief.

So the argument becomes that it was open to the coroner to rule that there was evidence here on which they could believe on the balance of probabilities that the gunmen did not have such an honest belief, but that they could not hold that same belief beyond reasonable doubt. I do not think that is a reasonable position. , or correct in law. I think that is seriously encroaching onto the jury's territory.
--
Richard Miller
.

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