Re: Community shock over vicar's porn charges

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:14:04 GMT, "Raisa Pottlard
.." <Raisa.Pottlard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

So what? The same is true of 18. It is impossible to reliably
determine whether a person between the ages of about 16 to 20 is under
or over 18. It simply shifts the problem up by 2 years.

But it would be a reduced problem.

What problem are you thinking of?

Whatever it was that you were referring to.

So you have made a statement that the increase in age limit will
reduce the problem, without even knowing what the problem is!

*I* don't know for sure what problem others believe is reduced by
raising the age, hence why I have asked the question several times. I
do not personally see any problem that needed addressing. I can only
*infer* that some people feel that the fact that an image of a 15 year
old could have been mistaken for a 16 year old and the defendant found
not guilty as a result was "the problem". If so, I don't regard that
as a problem in the first place.

How does removing the element of doubt circumvent the
principle of justice?

When it changes something that should not be a crime into something
that is a crime, just to ensure that there is a greater certainty of
convicting for the target crime.

You have lost sight of perspectives. Which particular definition
of crime did you use, that accurately reflect your personal opinion
or that as defined by the law?

The crime I was referring to was the *original* mischief that
parliment sought to prevent when making the law. The prohibition of
indecent images of children *below the age of consent*. I do not
accept that there has been any changes to warrant altering the
definition of that crime.

The next logical step will be to say that people with images of 17
year olds are getting off the hook, so let's raise the age to 20.

If the defendant is in fact a paedophile, he would not be interested
in images of anyone as old as 16 in any case. A man who is interested
in images of a 15 year old who appears to be quite a bit older would
not be perverted or abnormal in any way.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

By reading books that give the definition of paedophilia and books
that describe normal sexual development. A normal heterosexual man
will be sexually attracted to girls who have completed puberty,
*whatever* her age. Society demands that he refrain from *acting* on
that attraction if the girl is below a certain age. A paedophile OTOH
is sexually attracted to *pre-pubescent* children. Society demands
that he may only act on that attraction if the child is above the
designated age. Which will be close to zero when the designated age
is significantly higher than the normal age of puberty.

I'm sure I am stating the bleeding obvious, but sexual arousal to a
photograph will be dependant upon the *appearance* of the person in
the image, not their chronological age, even if it is known.

I see it's a binary world that you inhabit.

Huh? In what way is any of the above an example of binary thinking?
The only in-between area is that concerned with children in the
process of undergoing puberty. A normal heterosexual man would find
such a child increasingly sexually attractive as the process
progresses, and a paedophile would be increasingly losing his sexual
desire. There is arguably a third type of person (hebephile) who is
attracted to people in the in-between phase, but they may simply be
people with higher or lower thresholds.

All my original point was making was that a normal heterosexual man
would find a normal 15 year old girl sexually attractive (assuming she
was fully physically developed by that age as most are), whilst a
paedophile would not find her attractive. (The same being true of
homosexuals of both persuasions wrt a 15 year old boy).

Having indecent images of post-pubescent children under the legal age
is still an offence, but is no indication that the person is in any
way sexually abnormal. If therefore it is possible that the defendant
did not *know* that the images were of underage children, then no
offence has been committed (lack of mens rea), and there is also no
reason to suppose that we are dealing with a pervert who should be
locked up to protect society. So why should anyone be bothered by an
aquittal? The same as if you are tending to plants in your garden
that you believe to be wild flowers but turn out to be cannabis.
Obviously in both cases a court has to be convinced that you did not
know.

There are circumstances where ignorance is not a defence but
I see your point.

Those are known as "absolute offences" and there are not a lot of
them. Mostly motoring offences IIUC.

Lack of effort is a defence.

It is lack of mens rea - aka "guilty knowlege" aka "intent to break
the law" With most crimes it is one of the necessary elements of the
crime, and one that the prosecution needs to prove BRD. Or at least
show that the defendant was willfully or recklessly keeping himself
ignorant of something he should reasonably have known.

Not to be confused with lack of knowlege of the law itself, which is
*not* a defence.

--
Cynic

.

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