Re: Advice about speeding ticket please

On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:19:13 +0100, Norman Wells
<norman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In message <8hbg13lp2u4bv41k1el0e48bslr3fksqpg@xxxxxxx>, Alex Heney
<me8@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes
On Sat, 7 Apr 2007 23:16:36 +0100, Norman Wells
<norman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

neither of the videos told us anything whatsoever in relation to
whether a 2 second gap is sufficient for safety, or whether indeed it
needs to match the overall stopping distance.

The gaps left were clearly insufficient whatever rule the drivers
thought they were applying, and it follows that greater gaps need to be
left and encouraged to be left.

In the first video, that is simply untrue.

In second, I totally agree.

But then in the second, they were nowhere near following the "2 second
rule", and should have been further apart than 2 seconds, since it was
wet.


At speeds in excess of about 40mph, the
2 second rule gives vehicle separations LESS than the overall stopping
distance rule. If a vehicle in front of you stops suddenly, as at least
the second video shows can and does happen

The second video shows NO SUCH THING.

It shows that if people are significantly closer than 2 seconds, in
the wet, then such an accident can happen.

The first video shows that vehicles *can* crash without any
significant braking, admittedly, although even then it did not come to
an immediate full stop.


(and we've all been in
similar situations), and you're applying the 2 second rule exactly at
such speeds, you WILL crash into it. You cannot avoid doing so as
you're inside the overall stopping distance. And that's clearly not
safe.

This is utter rubbish.

First, anybody sticking to 2 seconds in the second video was NOT
applying the 2 second rule, because that says that larger gaps must be
left in the wet.

Second, it is almost entirely unheard of for a vehicle to come to a
complete instantaneous stop, which is the only occasion when the
overall stopping distance becomes the relevant one.




Incidentally, I think it rather arrogant of you to suggest that the
police, the highway code, and all road safety organisations are wrong,
while you are right. And by saying that "overall stopping distance" is
the *only* safe rule, that is exactly what you are doing.

The Highway Code contains both the stopping distance rule and the 2
second rule. But they are not consistent with each other, and in
particular give different results at different speeds, so they can't
both be right all the time.


True, but then it never actually suggest you should leave a gap equal
to or greater than the overall stopping distance. It just says that is
"the safe rule", and that you should leave enough space to be able to
pull up safely if traffic in front suddenly slows down.

What it suggests you should do is:
"allow at least a two-second gap between you and the vehicle in front
on roads carrying fast traffic. The gap should be at least doubled on
wet roads and increased still further on icy roads"

This would mean that in the second video, the gaps should have been at
least FOUR seconds to comply with the rule, rather than the (roughly)
ONE second that most of them actually left (and *most* still managed
to avoid the smash even then).

The rule given primacy by use of the words 'the safe rule' is that of
never getting closer than the overall stopping distance

Wrong. That is not a rule they say you should follow, just a remark.

and that is the
rule I support.

That is your choice. But don't expect everybody else to leave
significantly more gap than is necessary.

It has the benefit of being based on immutable laws of
physics,

Nope.

It is based on it being at least moderately likely that a vehicle in
front of you will at some point come to an instantaneous stop. that is
almost impossible, not "an immutable law of physics".

one of which says that the energy a body possesses is
proportional to the square of its velocity. You will note that the
stopping distances quoted each contain a certain distance for a fixed
thinking time, which is directly proportional to the velocity, and a
braking distance which is proportional to the square of the velocity.
The 2 second rule has no such scientific foundation, and is at best just
a rough approximation of the stopping distance rule at around 40mph. I
do not think it is arrogant of me to agree with the Highway Code in
repeating its words that the stopping distance rule is THE safe rule,
nor in putting the word 'only' in front of 'safe'.


It is extremely arrogant, because you are not only saying that their
ac6tual rule as to what you should do is wrong, but are also going
against the advice of everybody qualified to have an opinion (which
does not include me - I am just following the advice).

It was you, I think, who said that the Highway Code should actually have
said "but stupid" after "safe", and that the overall stopping distance
is "a ridiculous distance to keep as a gap in normal motorway traffic".
If that's not arrogant I don't know what is.


No, but then you don't seem to have much idea on this topic.

I prefer to accept the advice of those who *do* know, namely the
police, and ALL the road safety organisations, plus the highway code.

And its stupidity is amply demonstrated in the second video.

It is not possible for a video which shows people not coming close to
following a rule to demonstrate the stupidity of that rule.

It does indicate the possible consequences of not following the rule.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
The best defense is to stay out of range.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Advice about speeding ticket please
    ... At speeds in excess of about 40mph, the 2 second rule gives vehicle separations LESS than the overall stopping distance rule. ... If a vehicle in front of you stops suddenly, as at least the second video shows can and does happen, and you're applying the 2 second rule exactly at such speeds, you WILL crash into it. ... The rule given primacy by use of the words 'the safe rule' is that of never getting closer than the overall stopping distance, and that is the rule I support. ... It was you, I think, who said that the Highway Code should actually have said "but stupid" after "safe", and that the overall stopping distance is "a ridiculous distance to keep as a gap in normal motorway traffic". ...
    (uk.legal)
  • Re: Advice about speeding ticket please
    ... distance you can see to be clear. ... shunts where the vehicle in front of you has itself crashed and stopped ... If you do leave that large a gap, ... It never becomes reckless at the speeds experienced on UK motorways ...
    (uk.legal)
  • Re: Advice about speeding ticket please
    ... for the vehicle in front to come to an instantaneous stop to render your ... leave employing the two second rule and your overall stopping distance. ... If you are 110ft behind the car in front, and that car stops ... the gap *plus* the other car's stopping distance. ...
    (uk.legal)
  • Re: Advice about speeding ticket please
    ... for the vehicle in front to come to an instantaneous stop to render your ... leave employing the two second rule and your overall stopping distance. ... If you are 110ft behind the car in front, and that car stops ... the gap *plus* the other car's stopping distance. ...
    (uk.legal)
  • Re: Advice about speeding ticket please
    ... for the vehicle in front to come to an instantaneous stop to render your ... leave employing the two second rule and your overall stopping distance. ... If you are 110ft behind the car in front, ... the gap *plus* the other car's stopping distance. ...
    (uk.legal)