Re: A letter I agree with

In message <7jv02210gsp1ha5imvg9l1pm607ov0fpcg@xxxxxxx>, amacmil304@xxxxxxx writes

No because you have said frequently that they are carriers.

Angus your are a liar. I have always pointed out that they are not
carriers but a carrier is a specific term. I have given you a quote to
confirm this. In case you need more try ISBN 0-7136-2680-1 page 146 in
my copy.

What quote was that?

The one in another post about the meaning of "Carrier"



Which one?

I am certainly not going to look back for you but I will give you the quote again.

Blacks veterinary Dictionary.

Carrier - an animal recovered from a disease , or not showing symptoms, but capable of passing on the infection to another animal.

By the way you aren't strictly correct in claiming they can't be carriers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapox_virus

categorically states they can be carriers as does a number of other websites and articles.




I have said that before they become carriers (that is before they
recover from the infection or before they seem healthy while still
giving off the virus) they are NOT carriers but infectious.


You're confused again. The scientists who have researched the problem
say that do not know the origin of the virus in reds. Do try to
overcome your difficulties.


Anther of your blatant lies.


What is?

Your attempt at changing the meaning of what the scientists mean. Isn't
it strange when anyone quotes science to you scientists are famous for
never getting it right but you cling on to a misinterpretation of a
single sentence backing by cries of the scientists said.


Are you saying the scientists are misinterpreting the issue. I seem
to remember you saying that about BBC.

No I didn't say they misinterpreted you are telling lies again. This from a man who claims to base his whinging on honesty. I said they used standard journalistic practice.

While talking about the BBC and as you put so much faith in what they say - have a look at the article at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/369327.stm

Below a picture of a grey squirrel they say that greys carry the virus. So as you think they are infallible it must be correct :-)))


Right let us consider your supposed speculation.

It's not my speculation; it's yours.


No answer :-))

NO point you will just resort to silly one liners. However if you read the above you will find that after you have made it very clear you are basing your points on a single article the "speculation" is crumbling. I have by the way plenty more references for you. When I'm ready :-))))))


I agree that few reds
have survived the parapox. Not speculation fact. If many had then
there would be lots with antibodies. Even by your quote this is not so
- not speculation.


How do you make that out?

I said that in the para above but if you can't understand I will try
again. The quote you began with said few reds had shown antibodies.
Fact.

Yes.


Antibodies are the result of exposure to the virus and surviving. Fact.


Exposure but perhaps not infection. There are many people who don't
get a certain disease who are exposed to it. Why is that?

Look back to my definition of carrier. Also just to help convince you. Are you aware that Rushton et al 2000 AND Tompkins et al 2003 both agree the role of the grey as a vector is becoming increasingly documented.

NB the first reference is 6 years old so the situation will be even clearer now.


If many reds had survived parapox then there would be lots with
antibodies. Fact.


See above.

Read the second para of this article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapox_virus

Also this one - it gives figures and with your arithmetic background ti may help.

http://www.glenoakzoo.org/parapoxvirus.htm








Even if I did tell you, you wouldn't believe it because you are either
deliberately misinterpreting the quotes you give or are lacking in
sufficient intellect to interpret the quotation.


What quotation?

The one you keep posting which you grasp at which says greys have not
been proved to be carriers. Something by the way which if you check
back I have never questioned. I have however tried to get you to
realise that they can be infective without being carriers.


So are you saying the origin of the virus in reds is greys? The
scientists don't say that.

Angus stop pretending your thick and stop trying to put words into the
scientists mouths,

I'm not.

Sorry but you are. However now immaterial because the scientists (you know those folk who you have frequently in the past posts suggested can't be wrong) have said greys can be carriers.



1. The scientists mean by origin the virus that mutated to produce the
parapox virus. I have pointed this out to you often but because of your
clutching at straws mode you fail to notice it.

2. The greys have antibodies they must have been exposed to the virus.

3. There is no reason on earth why the greys while infective with the
parapox can not infect the reds. There isn't in anything I have read a
single suggestion that the reds have not caught the virus from the
greys.

4. The only suggestion that this is not the case has been made only by
a single Scot who appears to be either incredibly thick or more likely
clutching at straws and PRETENDING that he doesn't understand. This of
course does make him look a little strange.


See above.

Try the references already given plus the third para under the heading Parapox virus in this one.

http://www.napak.com/red_squirrel.html


Angus that is they meaning of what has been said and if you dig deep
enough read enough reports etc. and perhaps talk to a few people they
will confirm for you that that is the case. Just because you cling onto
a SINGLE reference and YOUR own interpretation doesn't mean that it
isn't the case. Go on do as you frequently urge me to do - research
make sure you know what you are talking about before you cling so
desperately to a SINGLE reference and a single interpretation of your
own.


What reports?

At least the ones I mention above. There are more to come if you look.




You are trying to pretend that they are talking about how a
virus gets to any particular habitat. They don't and for that matter
how the virus gets there is immaterial.

It's very "material" to the greys if they are being falsely blamed for
it

NO however the virus gets into a population of squirrels doesn't matter.

Of course it does. Tell that to the red squirrel fanatics.

Try the references already given plus the third para under the heading Parapox virus in this one.

http://www.napak.com/red_squirrel.html



The fact is that once in the greys will live with the disease spreading
ti to other greys and reds. Reds become dopey and rather static and so
do not spread the disease so much.


Not what the scientists say. Read the quote again.

You read the references I have given then try to explain how your single quote is so out of line with the others.




Read a few references on the development of antibodies and the course of
diseases.


Haven't the time to indulge your speculation.

I see Angus understanding what you are talking about is indulging
speculation.. Well that makes it clear for one and all about how much
you care about giving correct honest answers.


It's facts,not speculation, that matters.

I couldn't agree more that is why it is so vital that you don't cling to
single reference but read more widely and get a better understanding of
the facts. I keep feeding you facts but you always speculate that they
are wrong.


No. You're feeding speculation that the scientists do not say or know

Read the references I have given and read more widely round the subject before you open your mouth and put your foot in it again.
.



Any scientist will tell you that animals are infective while suffering a
disease and in many cases before and after showing any signs of the
disease. (After is dealt with in the quote about carrier) I won't get
you to tax your brain with the before but consider this if animals
aren't infective when suffering a disease then no other animal would
ever catch the disease - there would be no source of infection. In fact
disease would not exist it would be like a species of animal which
couldn't breed. There would be the one generation and then the virus
would die out as the host had died and it couldn't have spread.

Silly man.


Could you explain that, please.

Certainly. Any scientist will tell you that animals while suffering a
disease are infective.

If there was no phase when they were infective the disease would never
spread.

As a result there would never be any microbe caused disease and we would
all live in utopia.


What about those who naturally fight off the disease.

While they are fighting the disease they are capable of giving off the virus. That has been the thrust of my point all along.

They must have
some form of protection. They might be exposed, and trigger
antibodies and not show any infection

Its called being a carrier.

- unless you know of another way
they are portected.

I am not suggesting they are protected. I am suggesting they are infective WHILE they are becoming protected. Again immaterial as they can be carriers.

I'm not a scientist. I only go on what they say
and that is they don't know the origin on the virus in reds.

Seems your wrong again I won't bother to repost the references above but by now you should have read them anyway.

By the way the parapox virus is a member of the same group of viruses as Orf. It very probably mutated from one of these. There are a number around including one which attacks seals.







Firstly it means the origin of the virus in its first outbreak is not
known. That is the virus it mutated from.


No it doesn't. they don't know of the origin of the virus in reds.

As you are going on like a stuck record explain which of the
possibilities of origin you think they mean.

a) The origin of the virus.

b) the origin of that particular out break.

c) they have no idea what causes parapox


They mean what they say.

I keep telling you that but you show signs of confusing so go on define
what they mean by the origin.


Where the reds are picking up the disease.

That is NOT the standard definition of the origin of a virus but even using your definition ti is not quite correct see the references above. Add to that knowledge that it first appeared in Norfolk and the virus group and I would say the knowledge is considerably more on both my definition and yours than you are claiming.



Could they have got it from the reds?

Which ever animal they got it from a red or a grey doesn't matter they
have got the antibodies from being infected by the virus.

It matters a lot to the greys. Their lives are at stake from the nazi
conservationists.


I think the references above are pretty conclusive don't you.
--
Malcolm Kane
.

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