Re: EU money for conservation OR money for old rope. RSPB sniffing at the trough again.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:12:49 +0100, Malcolm
<Malcolm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>
>In article <oqt5j1hktoqktj42k5ucg1vpbea7cga5ti@xxxxxxx>,
>amacmil304@xxxxxxx writes
>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:05:11 +0100, Malcolm
>><Malcolm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article <1127392281.26107.0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, BAC
>>><casswalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
>>>>"Malcolm" <Malcolm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>news:Ix3nM8csRnMDFwFU@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> In article <1127376748.13552.0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, BAC
>>>>> <casswalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
>>>>> >"Malcolm" <Malcolm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>> >news:An1FpINlElMDFwFt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> >> In article <vnj3j1d2thc20rqcav43q8jpsnl7jf0pg3@xxxxxxx>,
>>>>> >> amacmil304@xxxxxxx writes
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >We did a long time ago when they started killing the wild goats at
>>>>> >> >Loch Lomond in Scotland.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> Not "wild", but the descendants of farmed animals.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Perhaps you gents could agree on the goats being described as 'feral'?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Source - Concise Oxford Dictionary
>>>>> >
>>>>> >feral adj.
>>>>> >1(of an animal or plant) wild, untamed, uncultivated.
>>>>> >2a (of an animal) in a wild state after escape from captivity. b born in
>>>>the
>>>>> >wild of such an animal.
>>>>> >3brutal.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Etymology L ferus wild
>>>>> >
>>>>> Feral is fine by me, though that definition is incomplete (too concise!)
>>>>> and doesn't accurately describe these goats. However, the fuller
>>>>> definition in the SOED does:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Chiefly of animals: belonging to or forming a wild population
>>>>> ultimately descended from individuals which escaped from captivity or
>>>>> domestication; born of such an animal in the wild"
>>>>>
>>>>> The important difference is the addition of the words "or
>>>>> domestication", because of course these goats are the domestic type of
>>>>> goat. Actual wild species of goat from which the domestic stock
>>>>> originated have never occurred in the UK, or indeed in Europe, apart
>>>>> possibly from a few parts of Greece.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm glad you at least can agree on 'feral', (we'll have to wait for Angus'
>>>>views, if he wishes to share them) but I think you may be going a little far
>>>>if you are imputing general equivalence between 'non-native' status and
>>>>feral or domestication.
>>>
>>>I wasn't. I was pointing out, for the benefit of anyone who didn't
>>>actually know, that the true 'wild goat' has never occurred in Britain.
>>>
>>>> To be described as feral, it seems to me, the animal
>>>>merely has to (a) currently be living 'wild', and (b) be (or be a descendent
>>>>of) a formerly captive or domestic animal.
>>>
>>>Agreed. That's the accepted meaning of feral.
>>>
>>>> Although domestic goats are
>>>>derived from non-native species, other domesticated animals may not be. For
>>>>example, I understand that many (most, all?) UK 'wild' goshawks may be
>>>>described as feral, because they are reputedly derived from 'escapees' from
>>>>domestication by falconers, but that doesn't make them a non-native species.
>>>>
>>>No, because, like the Capercaillie, they were here naturally, then died
>>>out and have now come back.
>>>
>>>>So, although Angus' 'wild' or feral goats are of course of non-native stock,
>>>>it doesn't necessarily follow that all feral or domestic animals are also of
>>>>non-native stock.
>>>>
>>>I haven't suggested that, though examples don't exactly spring to mind.
>>>
>>>>Anyway, one would hope that they were not culled merely because they were
>>>>'feral' but because they were deemed to need management, as with other
>>>>'free' grazing/browsing animals, feral, native or otherwise, e.g. deer,
>>>>rabbits, ponies.
>>>>
>>>Absolutely right. It was done because the woodland was being destroyed
>>>by animals that were formerly farmed but then were allowed to grow in
>>>numbers and were no longer constrained in where they went. If Angus has
>>>ever walked through the woodlands on the east side of Loch Lomond, as I
>>>have, and seen the damage done through over-grazing by, especially,
>>>goats, then he might (?) just begin to appreciate (a) why it was
>>>necessary to reduce the number of goats (though no attempt has been made
>>>to get rid of them altogether because a low density of grazing animals
>>>is a part of good management of this kind of woodland) and (b) why any
>>>of his suggested alternatives, like fencing either whole woodlands or
>>>individual trees, was impractical, unless very, very, large sums of
>>>money were spent, which of course he also opposes if it is for
>>>conservation, while at the same time forcing the displaced goats into
>>>other woodlands and habitats, which would then need saving from their
>>>depradations, and so on and so on.
>>
>>I don't know how many times I have to explain to you that a balance
>>would eventually enfold. As the population of goats increased it
>>would suffer pressure from the habitat and over time the population
>>would reduce. At the same time the trees would decline or be damaged
>>as the goat population rose then opver time a balance would be struck.
>>Also over a lengthier time when trees were fewer, goats would probably
>>turn their attention to other forms of food. I shouldn't have to
>>explain it is such babylike terms to someone who thinks he knows it
>>all. Goats, like deer, locusts and humans are all regulated (if left
>>alone) by nature. Perhaps you should learn something about it.
>>
>Absolute rubbish. Your constant claim that "a balance would eventually
>enfold" (I think you mean unfold, but never mind) has no basis in
>science whatsoever. It is pie in the sky, ludicrous nonsense. By
>constantly putting this silly idea forward you merely expose your total
>ignorance of ecology and of the interactions between species.

You always go for typos when you are stuck :-))

Obviously the very basics escape you and you are blinded by how man
wants to arrange nature rather than by what nature does itself. It's
the interactions that create balance. If it wasn't, we'd be up to our
knees in locusts and the like.

If the seabirds all died off or left Canna It's very possible the rat
population would start to decline if their main food source was chicks
and eggs. What you lot are trying to do is the reverse by killing the
rats.

And don't start telling me there's no balance in nature, unless you
want to start looking like a fool again.

You really are incredibly dumb :-(

>
>>You could tery using all that surplus intelligence you have available
>>:-)
>>
>I hardly have to use any of it to realise what piffle you put forward.

Gosh ! You missed a typo.

I think you've the same problem of understanding as when you claimed
to have unlimited intelligence :-)


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: EU money for conservation OR money for old rope. RSPB sniffing at the trough again.
    ... As the population of goats increased it would suffer pressure from the habitat and over time the population would reduce. ... At the same time the trees would decline or be damaged as the goat population rose then opver time a balance would be struck. ... Can I suggest that you do a bit of research - for example try a search on balance of nature and only choose to read article from educational establishments. ... You aren't falling back on your school education without having updated it are you? ...
    (uk.environment.conservation)
  • Re: EU money for conservation OR money for old rope. RSPB sniffing at the trough again.
    ... >>> and doesn't accurately describe these goats. ... other domesticated animals may not be. ... >>domestication by falconers, but that doesn't make them a non-native species. ... >ever walked through the woodlands on the east side of Loch Lomond, ...
    (uk.environment.conservation)
  • Re: EU money for conservation OR money for old rope. RSPB sniffing at the trough again.
    ... As the population of goats increased it ... At the same time the trees would decline or be damaged ... >>as the goat population rose then opver time a balance would be struck. ... >>alone) by nature. ...
    (uk.environment.conservation)