Re: Here's someone on our side :o)

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 10:09:43 +0100, D.M. Procida wrote:

Ian <ian@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Every*one* (i.e. every individual) has a duty to take an interest in
education. I don't think that *business* (i.e. profit-making) has any
right or stake in education whatsoever.

So you will give up your teaching salary because its profitable to you?

I am not making a profit, I am earning a salary. Making a profit means
spending less on resources and labour than you can sell them for.

Your definition.

Look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit

for a more balanced view.

I am not
buying and selling for a profit.

You are. You are selling your expertise to the students via the school.
Your profit margin is your personal expenses taken from your take home
pay. You have a service level agreement with your employer in the form of
a contract which is not much different from the way I have contracts with
customers.

I make a profit but I hope I also contribute something useful to
education and profit is not my sole motive. Breaking exactly even is
actually quite difficult and giving away surpluses is not that simple
either because of the need for investment in future business.

I am not saying that you shouldn't be making a profit or running a
business, even one supplying services or goods to education. What I am
saying is that business should not have a right over how children are
educated.

Which is absurd. Why should business people have less rights than anyone
else? In fact, governments in general actively try and encourage
businesses to take an interest in education - most are too busy staying in
business to spare much time. However, when businesses offer schools
resources I don't see many refusing them.

The purpose of education should be to educate people, and that is it.

Quite so, and education includes a balanced view of economics, how jobs
are created and sustained in the practical world and the political
perspectives that drive this. That means involving a wide range of
interests not just those that suit individuals.

I do understand this as well. But if you agree that it should be opened
up far enough so that we get education secretaries jumping out of their
political boots every time the CBI moans that school-leavers don't seem
to be well-prepared to do tedious menial jobs more cheaply than workers
in the poorest countries in the world, then it seems to me that you have
allowed one kind of view or interest to dominate very dangerously over
education (which in fact I think is the current situation).

That is a long way from saying "business should not have a right over how
children are educated." I agree that they should not have a
disproportionate say, you seemed to be saying they should have no say and
have no legitimate interest. I just think that is extreme.

If that suits business's purposes, well, lucky business; if not,
tough luck.

I think you need to be a bit more discriminating about what constitutes
legitimate business interest and what could be deemed to be
illegitimate. I would agree that there are circumstances where
conflicts of interest arise but there are also co-operative ventures.
Work experience is an obvious one.

I am not speaking of individual business which have some involvemnent or
connection to education in one way or another; some of those do good
stuff well, and some don't.

I am speaking of business as a powerful and well-organised political
interest which makes a lot of noise about education and its purpose, and
which has strong interests in moulding education to its own ends.

You could also say teachers have such an interest and are in a rather more
powerful position to exercise it. The strength of a pluralist society is
in the balance of power between the interest groups. If one says the other
has no legitimate interest there will be a predictable reaction polarising
things.

As an employer, I want educated applicants because without them the
business will die and the people working here will then be out of
work and not paying taxes. If replicated nationwide the education
system will collapse because there will be no national wealth to pay
for it.

Simply not true.

Which bit isn't true?

The idea that an education (or health, or other public service) is
dependent upon a capitalist economy.

It certainly is here and now. Whatever your political views, at this point
in time, social investment is dependent on the established business
(capitalist, third sector etc) infrastructure. So we have to deal with the
practicalities of that situation until such time as some socialist
politician engenders the confidence in the electorate to get voted in or
there is a coup.

The education and health systems in
other economies weren't (aren't, in the case of Cuba)

Cuba *might* be an exception but one tiny country does not make a very
good argument to prove your case. There are far more socialist
dictatorships that prove the opposite. Even China has moved to a market
economy and as a result experienced far more rapid growth and wealth
development than previously.

and whatever the
other serious problems those societies faced, they were able to sustain
public services easily the equal of those in capitalist economies.

Having visited a lot of these countries relatively recently I find that
very hard to believe. But really all of that is academic because we are
where we are not where you would like us to be.

--
Ian Lynch
www.theINGOTs.org
www.opendocumentfellowship.org
www.schoolforge.org.uk
.

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