Re: Is logic taught to UK school children?

In article <cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-2HDQtKDNlH20@localhost>,
Ian Johnston <ian.groups@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
: That's actually a different proposition. In some ways, it
: would be Nice to have three different maths A-levels: real maths,
: maths for physicists and engineers, and maths for people who just
: want to do some more in the sixth form.
Well, the fist two already exist: further maths and just-maths. So all
that's needed is a "Maths in Society" course for the last lot.

No, no! Firstly FMaths is bolted on to JustMaths, when it
*should* be a different take on a glob of stuff, some [syllabus, not
delivery] the same as JM but some quite different. Secondly, they
should all do some MiS, but especially the RM group. Thirdly, the
"last lot" would probably quite like to do *some* of the JM -- they
often enjoy manipulative stuff -- as well as some RM. And it would
be nice if some of the JM people did some RM as well. And after
that you're in a maze of twisty passages of modules, options, exit
points, and *still* left with only a tiny, tiny minority of teachers
competent to teach anything but JM, and a lot of bewildered schools.
So it's not going to happen. Gloom.

Isn't maths still the single biggest A-level, by a long way? I am
pretty sure it was the last time I looked ...

Overtaken a few years back by English? And at that stage
losing 10%pa. That problem may have been stemmed by C2000, haven't
seen figures recently. Maths applications were reasonably healthy
[AFAIK, and partly extrapolated from own experience], which tells
you where the heavy losses come from.

: (b) Some eng'g depts are finding it harder to recruit good
: students, as other depts produce better web sites, open days, or
: rankings.
Doesn't that apply to all subjects? I know some engineering
departments which do jolly good open days.

Oh, yes, it's just that it's often eng'g depts that are
grumbling. Open days aren't always under the control of depts --
a few years back some bright spark in our univ organised the
main univ open day to coincide with a core maths paper. "Well,
there is some paper *every* day, some subject has to lose out."
And then they wondered why maths *and* physics *and* chemistry
*and* computing *and* elec eng *and* ... had about three students
visiting between them, and even economics, geography, psychology,
etc were badly affected. "Don't understand, it was a nice day,
and we had *thousands* visiting law, history, ....".

: I'm unconvinced that maths exams, in general, are "easy".
I think the problem is the modules - breaking down stuff into tiny
chunks which can be retaken.

OK, but we're stuck with that [at univ level, too], no
point crying over spilt milk or special pleading. The chunks
aren't *that* tiny, and the key point for "real" maths is to
have stuff that genuinely tests abstraction, interpretation,
understanding, etc., that no amount of rote learning will get
you through, and for "maths for physics" is to have reasonably
meaty handles that need churning. The problem is not retakes
but lack of joined-upedness, so that you can safely forget all
you know except today's paper, and that can be cured by quite
minor changes in syllabus, exam setting, and regulation.

With the commndable diversity of syllabi these days it's pointless to
expect everyone to come to university knowing a fixed package of stuff
called "A-level maths". However, it is reasonable to expect that
students who have taken an A-level in two years have the ability to
learn at a certain rate

Agreed entirely, though of course the corollary is that
univ courses have to start from somewhere around AS level.

- and I don't think A-level gives that
information any more.

Less convinced. But I do think that what they have been
learning is a different style from what we [most of us] give them.
Most of the lecturing that I [am required to] do is utter rubbish.
It is beyond me that any good is expected to come from reading to
a large class what they can read for themselves on the web site.
We need to start teaching ....

[Snip good anecdote and much that I agree with.]

--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
anw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.

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