Re: Desperate for business bank account

Peter Saxton wrote:
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 23:42:02 +0100, "Old Codger"
<oldcodger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Peter Saxton wrote:
On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 17:18:42 +0100, "Old Codger"
<oldcodger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Peter Saxton wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 16:30:06 +0100, "Old Codger"
<oldcodger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Peter Saxton wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006 17:21:35 +0100, "Old Codger"
<oldcodger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Peter Saxton wrote:
On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:56:04 +0100, chappycheeky
<chappycheapy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:28:37 +0100, Peter Saxton
<peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:02:39 +0100, chappycheeky
<chappycheapy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 23:18:21 +0100, Peter Saxton
<peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



This is why the "single" item is in reality many
independently produced items.
pardon?

You don't understand "If the cards are made from many
different chips by different government departments it would
be very difficult to counterfeit."?
I understand that. What I don't understand is This is why
the "single" item is in reality many independently produced
items.

If we have a single item of identification ( and I always
have and always will belive thatt that is the thin edge of
the fascist wedge, probably why Tony likes it so much) then
it can't be many idependently produced items. Even if we
have 12 different chips from twelve different manufacturers
to choose from, one card will have one chip and therefore
the problem for criminals will be to forge one chip.

Please don't get hysterical and talk about fascism. It has as
much to do with fascism as a bus ticket or an oyster card
does.

You seem to be saying that anything that makes it difficult
for criminals is fascist!

How did you mange to form that view from "If we have a single
item of identification (and I always have and always will
believe that that is the thin edge of the fascist wedge,
probably why Tony likes it so much)" As I suggested above that
is the biggest use for the sort of ID card that is being
proposed.

I can't see why anyone would ever think that one card will only
have one chip. It's a load of rubbish.

Are you just trolling? First you derive fascism out of "a single
item of identification" and now you appear to have converted that
to refer to a single chip. Try reading and responding to what is
written instead of generating false arguments.

Are you mad? chappycheeky was the one ranting on about fascism -
not me!

Do you really believe what you post?

Yes, because it's the truth and you don't seem capable of talking
logically.

Hmmm!

Chappycheeky seems to believe that "a single item of identification
is the thin edge of the fascist wedge". A not unreasonable
statement IMHO. It was you who said "You seem to be saying that
anything that makes it difficult for criminals is fascist!" which
is *not* what chappycheeky said at all. As far as I can see it is
you who was "ranting on about fascism".

This proves you are talking rubbish. chappycheeky has a rant about
fascism and when I assert it has nothing to do with fascism you say
that I'm ranting on about fascism!

Oh do read what you wrote. I was not referring to your first
statement that it has nothing to do with fascism I was referring to
your second statement, which I quoted above. You said "You seem to
be saying that anything that makes it difficult for criminals is
fascist!" which is *not* what chappycheeky said. Once again you are
generating a false argument.

You said: 'First you derive fascism out of "a single item of
identification" '

I did no such think.

Try reading above the part of the post to which you were responding. As I
read it you did derive fascism out of "a single item of identification".
Not that I expect you to agree though, it is not something that you appear
to do easily if it disagrees with your beliefs or statements.

It was someone else who connected it with fascism
and you seem to agree.

I did agree with Chappycheeky's belief that a single item of identification
is (or I would say could be) the thin end of a fascist wedge.

I was saying that it has nothing to do with fascism. That's hardly
deriving fascism out of anything!

The part you ignored, and which I quoted above, was "You seem to be saying
that anything that makes it difficult for criminals is fascist!". I cannot
see how you managed to get that out of Chappycheeky's original statement.

The ID card will *not* be a cure all for security against
terrorists, whatever this, or any, Government would like us to
believe. It *will* be counterfeited and identification failures
with genuine cards will cause innocent citizens very much more
hassle than your little difficulty with a bank.

Given a possession of an ID card (stolen?) the data *can* be read.
The cards have to be capable of being read remotely for travel
within Europe, that gives the bad boys another chance to obtain
data from a card. Finally, the technology is just an advancement
on the familiar RFID chip. Now that *is* scary when considered as
a means of securing an ID card.

Why does the card's data have to be read remotely within Europe?
What is wrong with looking at the information on the front of the
card?

Because it is an EU requirement for internal use instead of
passports. Speeds up movement across frontiers.

Can you provide a link to support that statement?

Don't have the document with the reference to hand at the moment. Try
looking at the EU website. Probably http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/oj/
would be a good place to start.

Oh, if you really do believe that it will be impossible for a
single person to have two identities IMHO you are living in cloud
cuckoo land.

I notice you are not willing to justify your statement but settle
for a pathetic insult.

There is a tolerance on every measured metric which means that it is
distinctly possible for two people to have the same "recorded"
biometric data. Unlikely that every metric would be duplicated but
not impossible. In addition, finger prints can be forged so it is
likely that other metrics will also be forgeable in time. As I
said, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you really don't
believe it will be possible for one person to have more than one
identity.

You don't seem to understand logic at all. You argue about anything
without thinking. If there is an alert over a possible duplication
then there is a thorough investigation to ensure that someone is not
trying to have two identities. This is better than spending a lot of
time dealing with obviously innocent people.

With a population of 60,000,000, you must be joking.

How can you forge finger prints in an ID card situation?

I think that has been answered by others since I last posted.

Going away for a few days so will have to forgo the pleasure of
putting you right for the time being.

Another example of your talking rubbish. You conveniently hope nobody
will remember you denying you accused me of anything but I put YOU
right! Go away and consider that you shouldn't substitute lies for
logic.

Ah, the fellow who complains about "pathetic insults".

Have now returned from my few days away. I note that I have not been missed
as others have taken up the cudgels in trying to make you see sense. A
pattern seems to be emerging. You conveniently ignore any argument that you
cannot easily counter or twist slightly so that your response is not against
the original argument.

I was only partly right in considering you a Troll. Someone (buzzbomb?)
thinks you are a government troll. The evidence tends to support that view.
Your mind appears to be firmly made up and you consider ID cards to have no
vices and only benefits. You also cannot seem to accept that the ordinary
citizen could suffer any significant inconvenience from the introduction of
ID cards. Others have supported the points I made so I consider this
discussion ended.

I believe you will consider this a victory for you. Other readers will make
up their own minds.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]


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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Desperate for business bank account
    ... This is why the "single" item is in reality many independently ... forge one chip. ... Please don't get hysterical and talk about fascism. ... do with fascism as a bus ticket or an oyster card does. ...
    (uk.consultants)
  • Re: Desperate for business bank account
    ... This is why the "single" item is in reality many independently ... forge one chip. ... Please don't get hysterical and talk about fascism. ... to do with fascism as a bus ticket or an oyster card does. ...
    (uk.consultants)
  • Re: Desperate for business bank account
    ... This is why the "single" item is in reality many independently ... criminals will be to forge one chip. ... Please don't get hysterical and talk about fascism. ... to do with fascism as a bus ticket or an oyster card does. ...
    (uk.consultants)
  • Re: Desperate for business bank account
    ... criminals will be to forge one chip. ... Please don't get hysterical and talk about fascism. ... much to do with fascism as a bus ticket or an oyster card does. ...
    (uk.consultants)
  • Re: Desperate for business bank account
    ... criminals will be to forge one chip. ... Please don't get hysterical and talk about fascism. ... much to do with fascism as a bus ticket or an oyster card does. ... You seem to be saying that anything that makes it difficult for ...
    (uk.consultants)