Re: OT - help request for the Dark Side

On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 16:38:00 +0100, usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Andy
Hewitt) wrote:


I never said ZA was good or perfect, just that for me and many other
people it's easy to manage, highly predictable and better then the std
offering (AFA XP is concerned anyway).

For me it is easy enough, I *could* learn all I need to about it if I
*really* wanted to, it's certainly predictable, and if configured
correctly, and operated 100% correctly by the user, I'm sure it's an
effective security tool.

Ok.

However, it is very distracting from actually getting on with being
productive with the computer.

For you. For me it's not distracting /at all/ (and never, ever has
been). I really don't know how you must be using it for it to /be/ so
distracting?

I'd think that was no less safe than someone that just started clicking
allow anyway.

Clicking Allow is never going to be as safe as clicking Deny and for
many people on most apps doing so would not affect /them/ (ie, the
worst that would happen is an app couldn't phone home or check for an
update etc).

Or some apps may simply fail to function - IRC, news readers,
downloaders, streaming etc. Granted it will have caused no harm.

Yup. Anything you have blocked access to will then 'fail to work'.


[..]
As there isn't anything in OSX, it's somewhat redundant.

Apart from managing the what phones home side of things.

The main reason people used to install Little Snitch (don't tell me any
different) was to block pirated software from phoning home. There
weren't any security risks, and mostly they were only validating the
registration of the software.

I wouldn't try to tell you anything different. Why would I?

[..]
Of course there is that small chance that something will get through,
but probably no greater than mis-clicking an 'allow' button at some
point.

Agreed but not because of what you click on.

Er yes, exactly for that reason. Because you may have inadvertantly
clicked on 'Allow'.

Exactly, not because of what you clicked on, just that you did click
on it (and got it wrong). The default for ZA is not allow till you
have said Allow.

I mean, there isn't a
"Stop all viruses being download via the user of an IM client" button
in ZA or many straight firewalls. Just as a safety belt won't stop you
driving into a wall.

Actually, the only free solution I found the looks for viruses in IM is
Avast - which is where most of the malware got through last time. The
rest were dodgy IE toolbars. although E never uses IE.

So you weren't using the appropriate tools. Maybe I always have then?


So yes she had an infected notepad app but it hasn't.'had chance to do
anything bad (like phoning home anyway) because ZA had done what it
was supposed.

I think you're just lucky.

You could be right. I seem to be as lucky as most the other people
who's machines I set up and take my advice re how to use them.

I got a virus on this machine within hours of doing a clean install on
it. I wiped the hard drive, reinstalled from the original discs, and
before it had finished applying the 150 or so updates it had been
infected, although I'd only run updates from MS.

Then you probably weren't doing it right? How many machines do you
think I've set up in my life, both as the guy who installed every inch
of network cable in a building. to making most the PC's to installing
all the clients / servers / gateway / WAN / remote access plus as an
IT instructor for 7 years plus all my personal friends / family
machines over 20+ years yada yada. I'm not saying nothing has never
happen to any of them of course, just that it's nothing like the
problem you appear to have experienced. I'm happy for you to call that
luck if it explains how it could happen

So, what would you have had me do different?

I guess I could have installed the AV software immediately I did the
initial install, rather than leave it until it had all been updated (to
avoid any installer issues), although as the virus it got was one that
blocked AV software, it wouldn't have been effective anyway.

Yup, or make sure you are behind a hardware firewall etc etc.

As well as those, I have operated a custom garage system from 1980 to
1990, Xenix, Atari DOS 3 and 4, SpartaDOS (I liked that one a lot),
Atari TOS/GEM, Mac OS from 6 through to 10.6.

Yeah, (and again, respectfully),you use the word 'operated Andy.

Operated, familiar with, experienced with, expert on, whatever.

I wonder how many 'experts' suffer as you do then?

operated computers using an OS, or software package for a number of
years, wouldn't that count as familiar. Of the list above I have
probably tried out most things that might be used on those systems, and
indeed, attempted some that weren't actually supported.

OK. But you still get caught out when doing something that (I suggest)
people who may know better wouldn't do? I'm not saying I know all the
answers, just you keep offering up examples of where you have been
caught out and maybe I wouldn't have been?

I have no need now, but, for example, I did do things like rewriting
printer drivers to use non-standard characters, or create relational
databases.

Great. But you didn't install AV / FW before going online?

I know loads of people who would say they were familiar with Windows (or
OS9 as per my Dad) as they have used it over many years but get them
to do something other than open a WP doc or send an email and they are
screwed.

Then they're only familiar with WP and mail as is used on a Windows
computer.

Exactly.

I'm not suggesting for one second that that is your level of
knowledge but the fact that you have said some of the things you have,
or used some of the solutions (on Windows) that you have might suggest
there is some catching up to do? ;-)

I can find my way around Windows, and can generally root out things
eventually, but they are well hidden in comparison.

Never suggested otherwise.

However, I agree I'm
probably approaching it the wrong way, but using my experience of
computers from 30 years, why should I be finding Windows so horrible to
use?

It isn't, given (as you correctly identified) you are using it the
'right way'.

I would say I have a reasonable right to be critical of any of those
that I have used for more than a short while. I would have included
Ubuntu, but in fairness I have never used it for anything practical or
productive.

You have a right to criticize anything you like. ;-)

Indeed. Although a valid argument can only be had if I have, for one,
used the software in question, and another, have used others with which
to compare it.

Of course but I'm not sure what your issue is here? I'm not saying
Windows is secure or easier than OSX or anything, I'm just saying many
people don't seem to have the issues you experienced. If they had
don't you think they would seek out alternatives (and I know /some/
do)? If I was to move away from Windows the reason wouldn't be
security or reliability.

Well, we obviously see this from completely different directions.
Maybe it's a function of /how/ we use our preferred OS's as I have
never encountered the issues you describe so therefore couldn't see
them as issues for myself. I'm not denying they may exist for other
people of course.

Obviously they do exist. And of course vice versa. However, there's an
enormous amount of users that are unaware of any alternatives, or that
there is a different way to do things.

And that's surprising considering how long some of the said
alternatives have been in existence (and one of them is completely
free and nearly self installing)! [1]


No, what I'm saying is if you don't let this bad stuff in ... by
having decent AV, AntiMalware, mail filters, Firewall, HOSTS file and
some experience of keeping yourself safe (like not clicking the 'No
thanks' button on some rogue popup) then the chances are you will be
ok.

Hmm, that list shows Windows is not ready for consumer use.

Yep, probably.

Surely it's
fairly reasonable to sell a product that a user could use as it is.
Windows is like buying MFI furniture, except there's no 'self assembly'
warning on the box.

Of course?


I still find it hard to believe that you have to put so much work into
Windows before you could deem it *safe* to use though, the amount of
effort required, to me, is just plain daft.

Yup.

Perhaps it's no wonder I take the wrong approach, I'm used to - get it
out of the box, switch it on, use it.

Ah. ;-)


Yes I did, but 'type in a Password every time something needs to
install' is not correct. It's only type in a password if something is
going to be installed somewhere that could cause harm (that may be
malware, or a noob fiddling where they shouldn't). The majority of apps
that you put into the Applications folder never need a password to
install or operate.

Ah, well I'll bow down to your greater experience then. Maybe these
things 'feel' like that's what's going on, me with Passwords and you
with ZA popups. ;-)


As I do with OSX.

But then, with the title of the newsgroup, what else were you expecting?
:-)

Oh, I'm not surprised by any of the responses from some people here.
;-)


I can't think of anywhere where the + & - mean anything other than add
or remove.

As for adding printers, how easy do you want it?

Well, on the last HP printer I installed for my mate as easy as the
several PS's and the Ubuntu box would have been nice. I think it was
JJ who suggested I connected back to some Ghostscrips server' (WTF!)
to fix it. Something I would have never considered doing in a month of
Sundays.

I plugged my new
Officejet into the network last week, and it just appeared in my list of
printers.

But that's not 'adding a printer' then is it. That's a printer
installing itself automagically.

And I had to go out and buy a network printer /just/ to be able to
print to something here from OSX. The same Samba shareed Canon is
printable from any Windows client and Ubuntu? YMMV of course.


iDVD comes with most Macs, and doesn't ask any questions. There's a few
Freeware and Shareware apps that do the job too.

I'm sure there are, however because I don't have a spare Mac set up
it's not easy to try. If I could (easily) run OSX on say my Tosh
laptop as I can with Windows or a myriad of Lini maybe I could try OSX
more readily.

So, I didn't need to know how to find or install it as Synaptic
Package Manager did all that for me. It also added a menu item in the
Graphics / Audio menu so I didn't have to rake about in the filesystem
to find it. It asked me what input files I wanted and where to put the
output (via browse buttons) ISO. When finished, right clicking on that
gave me a Burn option and I then had a working DVD. No reading of
manuals or asking elsewhere and it worked logically (for me).

Now you're talking about Ubuntu.

Yes. ;-)

I have no criticism of that at all.
Mainly because I use it very little, and mainly because when I have, I
have very little trouble in doing so.

So how come I can't get on with OSX but can with Windows and (it's
suggested) also Ubuntu because it's 'like Windows'. How do you cope
with the X on a window closing the whole app and not just a window.
How do you cope with stuff auto installing an item in the Menu, when
such things are not what you like under Windows. At least I'm
consistent! ;-)

Perhaps Ubuntu really is middle ground, as both of us have little bother
with it? ;-)

See above?

Now, the OSX way /may/ have only allowed you to drag and drop the
source files into the app and that's not something I would do
instinctively. That means having the source folder and app open
simultaneously (and I tend to work in a single full screen remember).

OK, then drag and drop isn't going to work as well then.

Exactly. So there are more things to being comfortable with a solution
than just say the UI.

But it's been said the Ubuntu is aimed at Windows switchers so maybe,
that and / or the potential lack of subtly in some of the apps is what
makes it seem ok for me? ;-)

Perhaps, but as I said, I also have little trouble with Ubuntu.

Hmmm ..

Indeed, if I could find a way to play my iTunes Store purchased music in
Ubuntu, and perhaps find an alternative to Aperture, I would have no
problem switching to Ubuntu and building myself a cheap high performance
box for it.

But what's wrong with yer Mac?

Cheers, T i m



[1] I have a mate who is a complete and utter computer noob and
technofile. Long story short I poked a Ubuntu CD though his letterbox
the other day and told him on MSN / Windows how to use it. 10 mins
later he was playing Youtube videos with it over his wireless network!
.

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