Re: OT: Help! (MP3 questions)

T i m <news@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:01:59 +0100, me18@xxxxxxxxxxx (zoara) wrote:

<snip>

So a semi manual solution to a problem that needn't exist (if the
player supported folder view).

Yes. But it evidently *doesn't* support folders, so that point is
moot.

But the Philips GoGear Spark apparently does.

Ah, so when you asked how you might get what you already have to do what
you want, what you meant was what can you replace it with that does what
you want.

Saying this in the first place would have saved us both a lot of time. I
assumed - as you go on so much about how little you can afford - that
simply binning the player and buying a new one was out of the question.


Okay, to humour you; if the player
supports playlists, then you select that playlist and it plays the
contents of that playlist.

And the playlist got there how?

I was responding to what you asked. Sorry if you meant something else.


That's the
advantage it brings; it makes what you bought do what you wanted.
That's
why I suggested you find out if it supports playlists.

And what if she moves a music track from one folder to another. How do
most of these things update their playlists?

Think about what you're asking, T i m. I'm suggesting playlists as a
workaround for the lack of support for moving things around manually.
What do *you* think will happen?


I honestly can't believe that wasn't a wind-up though.

And now?

Now I'm beginning to understand why you struggle so much.


Doesn't want. Has had the opportunity (The Sansa was more than
ready
to synch with WMP etc).

It's more than possible that she dismissed this through fear of the
unknown. That's nothing to be ashamed of.

No, she simply didn't want to use it that way.

That doesn't counter my theory, though, does it?


Perhaps if you pointed out that she could use playlists to act like
her
folders if she used WMP, then she might reconsider. At least then the
player that she has would do closer to what she wants than it
apparently
currently does.

I suspect she would either put up with it as-is or get the Spark.

So it's not actually a feature she's that bothered about, then?


Ok, then she doesn't want a playlist either.

She doesn't *have* to use the inherent advantages of a
reference-based
system. If she only ever puts a given track in a *single* playlist, I
fail to see the difference between that and a folder of files in the
above context.

'Puts'? That sounds like she has to do that somehow.

So her music files currently magically move into folders of their own
accord? Or does she, you know, put them there?

FWIW I believe
the Spark allows you to put tracks into playlists (or 'a' playlist) on
the player itself. She wouldn't use the feature because for her there
is no requirement for a playlist, unless a playlist would
*automatically and on the player* pick up and display the actual name
of the folder and the filenames in which case I think she wouldn't
care how it happened, as long as it did.

What makes you think a playlist will behave any differently to a folder
in that regard? Have you been reading what I write or just looking at
the pretty squiggles on the screen?


Just to make sure I have this right (you know how stupid I am) .. A
playlist is a list of locations of and tracks. You can have multiple
playlists and they could be music grouped like 'Party' or 'Car' or
'Work'. She wouldn't use such a system.

Your description applies exactly to folders, too. "A folder is a list of
locations of and tracks. You can have multiple folders and they could be
music grouped like 'Party' or 'Car' or 'Work'."

How exactly do you think folders and playlists differ in use (ie after
creation; I know you have issues with their creation)?


Actually filing the music into the playlists is a different matter,
but
you aren't responding to that point, only that a playlist behaves
exactly like your folders, but with added extras *that you don't have
to
use*. I can't see how that would make that your daughter dismiss the
idea, unless of course you are trying to wind me up again.

If a player was *also* able to display it's contents making use of the
metadata then that might be used as an 'alternative' view.

Well, of course. What did you expect? I'm struggling to figure out what
you could be thinking here...


Your player
evidently doesn't support folders, so I am offering workarounds to
emulate that behaviour. And once they're on the player and you're
actually, you know, playing them, you wouldn't even be able to tell
the
difference between a playlist system and a folder system.

Understood, but what if she moved, deleted, renamed or added a track?

What if she moved, deleted, renamed or added a track using folders?


At the moment she goes into Folder <= Album>,
possibly a sub folder <Best of> and chooses a track by it's
pertinent
filename.

Ah, so she's put a load of work in that she needn't have done had the
files been given appropriate metadata in the first place, then.

Drag / drop, no work really?

Your computer drags and drops without you doing anything? How does it
know where to drag and drop to?


Where on
earth did these files come from? I've not seen any CD ripper that
didn't
manage to set this automatically in, ooh, at least five or six years
and
even the pirated stuff is properly tagged.

Ah, this is you building what you see on the box. What if (and I know
you wouldn't do this but) you wanted to simply rename a track and put
it in your own foldername?

Well, I'd first have to ignore the fact that you're forcing your own
solution as part of the question, and interpret your 'folder' as what it
does and not what it's called. Then I'd rename the track and put it in
my own foldername - why do you think that would be hard? I do that all
the time. Well, I don't rename the tracks as often as they're almost
always named correctly for me. But sure I regularly file them into
'folders' that I have named what I want. Why do you think that would be
hard?


Still, if she's already manually sorted them into album and artist
folders, there's a chance you can use one of the metadata tools to
add
all this info to the files in one go, then just bung it on the player
and let it sort out the folders for her.

She neither needs nor wants anything to sort her stuff out for her.
She has her music in the order she want's on her PC

I thought she used folders - so she has no control over what order the
tracks are in. She's forced to have them in the order decreed by the
system; presumably alphabetically.


You are trying to force an electric plane on someone who likes to use
a spokeshave. No one is saying an electric plane isn't generally
quicker or easier but it may not be 'better' for everyone or in every
situation (like when there is no electric available).

I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'd hold off on the analogies as you
really don't seem to have grasped them.

I'm not saying 'my' system is better for you. I'm not forcing anything
on anyone. I'm not saying you need to drop your old system of
arbitrarily filing music in arbitrarily named locations. I'm simply
suggesting that, if you step back from your solutions (which evidently
don't work on what you bought) and look at your requirements, you may
find that an alternative solution will be an adequate compromise.

It's like you've bought a brand new left-hand drive car and keep sitting
in the right hand seat and looking for the gearstick with your ledt
hand. I point out that you can emulate your previous driving habits in
the other seat, and by the way, this car has aircon and cruise control.

You keep insisting that you don't want to use aircon or cruise control,
so there's no way you can drive this car. And it's ridiculous for me to
suggest sitting in the left-hand seat because that would mean you have
the door where the gearstick should be.

If you ask how to drive this car, you need to realise that you can't
insist on sitting in the right-hand seat (ie filing into folders) as the
car doesn't work that way. The best compromise you'll get is to sit on
the left-hand seat and get used to using your other hand to change gears
(ie filing into playlists). And when someone suggests the *option* of
using cruise control (ie letting the player organise artist / album
lists) realise that it's an *option* and you can drive the car without
pressing that particular button.

Sitting in the right hand seat and muttering "there's just no way I can
drive this, where's the steering wheel" helps no-one. Take on the
suggested compromises or give up and buy another car.




I don't think your analogy holds water. It's not about "doing
things
your own way", it's about not realising there *can* be another
way.

Oh I'm pretty sure she guesses there are 'other ways' but at the
moment can't see how anything could improve upon her existing
system.

Yup, just like the Victorian gent with the desire to make his front
wheel even larger.

But if it works and she can deal with it?

The point being it doesn't work; that's why you started this thread.
You're asking how to add a six-foot wheel to your mountain bike; I'm
saying it can't be done that way but you get the same effect by choosing
different sprockets on your new bike.

A large wheel has worked for you in the past. It won't work on your new
bike. Insisting the only way you (or your daughter) can keep up enough
speed to balance is to add a large wheel is missing the point that the
frame isn't designed to cope with a large wheel.


Ok then. Or, she bought a castle kit, built a castle, want's a
castle
and is therefore happy with a castle. Giving her options to enter
via
the roof or dungeon when_she_wants but then she can't go in via the
front door isn't going to make it any more of the castle it ever
was
or that she liked.

Given that she's been bought a castle without a front door (er, like
most castles then?) it would seem pertinent to offer suggestions as
to
how else she might enter her castle.

If she wanted a front door she should have bought a house.

Every castle I've ever seen has a front door. It might be protected by
a drawbridge and portcullis but there is a front door (in function)
none the less.

If you're willing to call the entrance to a castle a "front door"
because it is identical in function to a door, then why do you have such
problems with playlists? They are as functionally equivalent to folders
as your front door is to a castle entrance; and you can even
(incorrectly) call them folders if it helps, just like you're calling a
castle entrance a front door.


But then that wasn't the point in any case.

Your point is rarely clear in any case.


Maybe this is better? My thought was that your daughter may have had
a
need ("I need to organise music into arbitrary lists") ...

Yes, she does, via the use of folders.

You really can't understand the difference between a need and a solution
presented as a need, can you? Think about it.

I'm not saying 'my' solution is a better one than yours, I'm simply
saying that stating your solution as a requirement will self-evidently
blind you to alternative solutions (however apropriate or not they may
be).

If you come in with a set of solutions masquerading as requirements,
then you're reducing the potential number of solutions to one before you
even start, and that gets you stuck. You're an engineer, you understand
that.


She isn't bothered how that
music appears within each folder as long as she can browse it with
it's filenames.

Again, have you actually read anything here or just looked at the pretty
patterns of the letters? Metadata has nothing to do with playlists. If
your files have such shitty metadata that you need to rely on the
filenames, *playlists will still work*. Why on earth wouldn't they?


She doesn't need any fringe benefits.

How does she know?


Because her friends have had all neatly ripped and automatically
sorted iPods with playlists and she doesn't want that.

You're confusing playlists with auto-sorting again.


Anything we offer that impairs
her use of her media player would not be considered a 'benefit'.

Well, obviously. But given that she has a player that doesn't do what
she wants, it appeared that you were asking how you might get it to
behave in a similar way. It seems I was wrong though; you want a
feature
that the player doesn't have, and you won't entertain a compromise.

I will entertain a compromise if it involves no user intervention and
allows her the flexibility she requires.

How can you get music onto a player with no user intervention?




I still think that there's a chance that you've identified a
potential
solution rather than an actual problem. Perhaps rather than it
being
"she needs to be able to reorganise her music using the lowest
common
denominator features available on any computer", you (or she?)
actually
means "she needs to reorganise her music anywhere she wants". In
which
case, why not get a player that allows the editing of playlists
itself?

Well whilst that sounds like it could be a solution it also sounds
like it's introduced another (therefore less efficient) step?

Step?

Sorry, in this instance I should have said process.

That makes even less sense. I'd try that sentence again from scratch if
I were you.


One of the
criticisms I've read re the Spark is that it compiles some sort of
'media list' when you turn it on.

That will be so it can organise the music into artists and albums after
you've dicked around with its database behind its back. Ten seconds for
less than a gig of music? So, presumably, a two minute wait for just the
measly 10GB I have on my phone or 20 minutes for what I used to carry
around?

I'm glad I don't have to deal with that kind of crap. And hey, I can
still organise my music into folders and name them what I want. Wow.


If you can accidentally snap an iPod nano in half, I'll pay for it
twice
over. That's a promise.

If she can get her Fuji F31fd flattened under a truck and her Samsung
'Solid' (rugged builders phone) smashed while she had it in her work
trousers (PPE) you may be in for an expensive week.

I said 'snapped in half' not 'broken'. The offer stands.


your offhand dismissal of my
workarounds makes me figure that you're not going to get what you
want
from this device.

It wasn't 'offhand' it just doesn't seem to provide an acceptable
solution.

I think you are confused. I'm not saying it *is* an acceptable solution,
just that based on your apparent understanding of what I am saying, you
are making an ill-informed judgement.


That doesn't mean we wouldn't try it?

I can't answer that question, it's up to you to decide.


p.s. FWIW and in the hope that it helps you understand why some people
might prefer our solution, here is just one example of someone looking
for the exact same solution on a PC based soft mp3 player.

Why do you think I can't understand why someone wants your solution? Are
you reading anything I write?

I understand your solution; I'm offering alternative solutions *because
you came ere asking for them* because your solution *doesn't work*.

How do you interpret that as me failing to understand why anyone wants
to do it the way you do it? How is that possible?

Now you've finished reading my post. Assuming you didn't start replying
to it before reading it all (your response style suggests otherwise)
then I would strongly recommend you read it properly before responding.
That way, what you write will relate to what I have written, rather than
what you think I have written, and we can have a conversation.

-zoara-


--
email: nettid1 at fastmail dot fm
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: iTunes: no keyboard navigation?
    ... able to expand and collapse folders to be useful at all. ... Which means keyboard ... navigation in playlists. ...
    (comp.sys.mac.apps)
  • Re: OT: Help! (MP3 questions)
    ... It doesn't display plain folders so no. ... playlists given hat you typedand where you typed it. ... player supported folder view). ... Or, she bought a castle kit, built a castle, want's a castle ...
    (uk.comp.sys.mac)
  • Re: OT: Help! (MP3 questions)
    ... But it evidently *doesn't* support folders, ... Saying this in the first place would have saved us both a lot of time. ... simply binning the player and buying a new one was out of the question. ... supports playlists, then you select that playlist and it plays the ...
    (uk.comp.sys.mac)
  • Re: Another reason to own a Mac
    ... Then you click on any other tab, ... transfer playlists. ... portable media devices and media manager applications. ... A folder with more folders in it has a little + sign. ...
    (comp.sys.mac.advocacy)
  • Re: Question on playlists
    ... from the folders on one's hard drive, that all the files in question would ... So, from now on, I'll just load the playlists onto the MP3 chip, and not ... song, which is already stored in the player. ...
    (microsoft.public.windowsmedia.player)