Re: OT: Help! (MP3 questions)

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 00:01:59 +0100, me18@xxxxxxxxxxx (zoara) wrote:

<snip>

So a semi manual solution to a problem that needn't exist (if the
player supported folder view).

Yes. But it evidently *doesn't* support folders, so that point is moot.

But the Philips GoGear Spark apparently does.

http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/reviews/258556/philips-gogear-spark-4gb.html

My suggestion is probably the closest you'll get to "folders" with that
player.

Ok.


"An M3U file is a plain text file that contains the locations of one
or more media files that the media player should play."

As she knows the location of any file she wants to see I'm not sure
what advantage that brings.

Are you serious? Like, genuinely serious? Or just trying to pull my leg?

Nope.

Can you really not understand that?

Nope (I can *understand* that).

Okay, to humour you; if the player
supports playlists, then you select that playlist and it plays the
contents of that playlist.

And the playlist got there how?

Just like if the player supports folders,
then you select that folder and it plays the contents of the folder.

Ok.

Except it doesn't support folders, but there's a chance it supports m3u
playlists *which will do exactly what you are asking for*.

I don't think it is.

That's the
advantage it brings; it makes what you bought do what you wanted. That's
why I suggested you find out if it supports playlists.

And what if she moves a music track from one folder to another. How do
most of these things update their playlists?

I honestly can't believe that wasn't a wind-up though.

And now?


<snip>

I'm not saying it is superior to dragon drop, I am saying it is a
workaround to emulate the behaviour on a modern player that has moved on
from that kind of system.

Depending on how it handled playlists then possibly.

Your best bet, if that is what you want, is probably to look at cheap
and nasty no-brand players, as they are the most likely to still
implement the old methods; it's cheaper to make the user do the work
than make the developers do it, so you'll probably only find it on
players where cheapness is valued over user experience.

Like the Spark you mean?

Doesn't want. Has had the opportunity (The Sansa was more than ready
to synch with WMP etc).

It's more than possible that she dismissed this through fear of the
unknown. That's nothing to be ashamed of.

No, she simply didn't want to use it that way.

Perhaps if you pointed out that she could use playlists to act like her
folders if she used WMP, then she might reconsider. At least then the
player that she has would do closer to what she wants than it apparently
currently does.

I suspect she would either put up with it as-is or get the Spark.

Ok, then she doesn't want a playlist either.

She doesn't *have* to use the inherent advantages of a reference-based
system. If she only ever puts a given track in a *single* playlist, I
fail to see the difference between that and a folder of files in the
above context.

'Puts'? That sounds like she has to do that somehow. FWIW I believe
the Spark allows you to put tracks into playlists (or 'a' playlist) on
the player itself. She wouldn't use the feature because for her there
is no requirement for a playlist, unless a playlist would
*automatically and on the player* pick up and display the actual name
of the folder and the filenames in which case I think she wouldn't
care how it happened, as long as it did.

Just to make sure I have this right (you know how stupid I am) .. A
playlist is a list of locations of and tracks. You can have multiple
playlists and they could be music grouped like 'Party' or 'Car' or
'Work'. She wouldn't use such a system.

Actually filing the music into the playlists is a different matter, but
you aren't responding to that point, only that a playlist behaves
exactly like your folders, but with added extras *that you don't have to
use*. I can't see how that would make that your daughter dismiss the
idea, unless of course you are trying to wind me up again.

If a player was *also* able to display it's contents making use of the
metadata then that might be used as an 'alternative' view.


You could have Track 1.mp3, Track2.mp3, track3.mp3 and dump 'em all in a
playlist and it would be fine;

Fine is in a kludge to simulate a folder full of tracks?

Well, yes. That's the point, it isn't that hard to grasp.

Not to me apparently.

Your player
evidently doesn't support folders, so I am offering workarounds to
emulate that behaviour. And once they're on the player and you're
actually, you know, playing them, you wouldn't even be able to tell the
difference between a playlist system and a folder system.

Understood, but what if she moved, deleted, renamed or added a track?


<snip>

At the moment she goes into Folder <= Album>,
possibly a sub folder <Best of> and chooses a track by it's pertinent
filename.

Ah, so she's put a load of work in that she needn't have done had the
files been given appropriate metadata in the first place, then.

Drag / drop, no work really?

Where on
earth did these files come from? I've not seen any CD ripper that didn't
manage to set this automatically in, ooh, at least five or six years and
even the pirated stuff is properly tagged.

Ah, this is you building what you see on the box. What if (and I know
you wouldn't do this but) you wanted to simply rename a track and put
it in your own foldername?

Still, if she's already manually sorted them into album and artist
folders, there's a chance you can use one of the metadata tools to add
all this info to the files in one go, then just bung it on the player
and let it sort out the folders for her.

She neither needs nor wants anything to sort her stuff out for her.
She has her music in the order she want's on her PC and she simply
wants her player to be able to replicate that. Just in the same way
you let iTunes 'organise' the music collection on your Mac and hence
onto your iPhone / pod / whatever.

You are trying to force an electric plane on someone who likes to use
a spokeshave. No one is saying an electric plane isn't generally
quicker or easier but it may not be 'better' for everyone or in every
situation (like when there is no electric available).


I don't think your analogy holds water. It's not about "doing things
your own way", it's about not realising there *can* be another way.

Oh I'm pretty sure she guesses there are 'other ways' but at the
moment can't see how anything could improve upon her existing system.

Yup, just like the Victorian gent with the desire to make his front
wheel even larger.

But if it works and she can deal with it?


Ok then. Or, she bought a castle kit, built a castle, want's a castle
and is therefore happy with a castle. Giving her options to enter via
the roof or dungeon when_she_wants but then she can't go in via the
front door isn't going to make it any more of the castle it ever was
or that she liked.

Given that she's been bought a castle without a front door (er, like
most castles then?) it would seem pertinent to offer suggestions as to
how else she might enter her castle.

If she wanted a front door she should have bought a house.

Every castle I've ever seen has a front door. It might be protected by
a drawbridge and portcullis but there is a front door (in function)
none the less. But then that wasn't the point in any case.


I'm not sure how many times I have typed the word "playlists"; I'll let
you count, then let you figure out whether the Sansa supports them.

See above (several times).


Maybe this is better? My thought was that your daughter may have had a
need ("I need to organise music into arbitrary lists") ...

Yes, she does, via the use of folders. She isn't bothered how that
music appears within each folder as long as she can browse it with
it's filenames.


She doesn't need any fringe benefits.

How does she know?


Because her friends have had all neatly ripped and automatically
sorted iPods with playlists and she doesn't want that.

If she doesn't want those benefits now, she needn't
take advantage of them. But they'll be there if her needs change.

Fair enough. Like the Spark. I have never discounted the facility of
using any 'extra' stuff. but there is a prerequisite that it does the
folder / file thing first.


Anything we offer that impairs
her use of her media player would not be considered a 'benefit'.

Well, obviously. But given that she has a player that doesn't do what
she wants, it appeared that you were asking how you might get it to
behave in a similar way. It seems I was wrong though; you want a feature
that the player doesn't have, and you won't entertain a compromise.

I will entertain a compromise if it involves no user intervention and
allows her the flexibility she requires.

Shoulda thought that one through before buying it then, huh?

Yep and already said that it was my mistake.


I still think that there's a chance that you've identified a potential
solution rather than an actual problem. Perhaps rather than it being
"she needs to be able to reorganise her music using the lowest common
denominator features available on any computer", you (or she?) actually
means "she needs to reorganise her music anywhere she wants". In which
case, why not get a player that allows the editing of playlists itself?

Well whilst that sounds like it could be a solution it also sounds
like it's introduced another (therefore less efficient) step?

Step?

Sorry, in this instance I should have said process. One of the
criticisms I've read re the Spark is that it compiles some sort of
'media list' when you turn it on.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/03/19/review_media_player_philips_gogear_spark/page3.html


From my (little) understanding of the iPod range there are the small
ones with no display and the bigger ones with displays but no clip,
are long and thin (ideal for snapping in half in a work pocket) and
don't allow direct folder / file access / display (anything missing
from that list would be a deal breaker).

If you can accidentally snap an iPod nano in half, I'll pay for it twice
over. That's a promise.

If she can get her Fuji F31fd flattened under a truck and her Samsung
'Solid' (rugged builders phone) smashed while she had it in her work
trousers (PPE) you may be in for an expensive week.

And your "direct folder / file access" appears to be another solution
masquerading as a problem.

Ok.


Indeed and thanks for trying. I'll be able to get a better look at the
Sansa when she returns and we will see if she could work with another
solution.

I hope you find a solution that suits her;

Me too.

your offhand dismissal of my
workarounds makes me figure that you're not going to get what you want
from this device.

It wasn't 'offhand' it just doesn't seem to provide an acceptable
solution. That doesn't mean we wouldn't try it?

However, I am still convinced that if you both stepped
back and looked at the actual problem rather than trying to emulate the
solutions and workarounds you have found previously, you may be
surprised that the Sansa turns out better for your daughter than you
expect.

We will see.

Best of luck with it.

Thanks again.

T i m

p.s. FWIW and in the hope that it helps you understand why some people
might prefer our solution, here is just one example of someone looking
for the exact same solution on a PC based soft mp3 player.

http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=51752
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT: Help! (MP3 questions)
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