Re: Songbird...

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:18:04 +0000, usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Woody)
wrote:

<some snips>
It's the same thing as Picassa or iPhoto (is it). If they don't do
anything to the files collection then they are fairly pointless and if
they do I don't need / want them.

So basically you dont need any application other than explorer?

Now you know that's not what I meant or said.


That is what I do, that is the way iTunes is laid out. You have your
'collection', your group of CDs, you have a column that lists all the
artists, a column that list all the albums a column that lists all the
genres (which is a waste of space for my point of view), and a list of all
the tracks.

So you don't know all those things or can't access those things
yourself (manually)?

I can't do all those things manually, no. Although I am not entirely
sure what you mean by manually.

From a file manager.

If I want to listen to some Quo I choose the Quo
folder then the particular Quo album then the track and play it. I'm
not sure how a package could help me play that quo track (without some
prior effort on my part anyway). Scrolling down a longer single list
isn't necessarily easier for me.

what happens if you don't know which album a particular track is? or if
the track is on more than one album and you want to see which version
you prefer? Or even if that track is on a compilation and you want that?
I couldn't do that another way.

That question would be based on the assumptions that 1) I would have
duplicates, 2) that I cared or had preferences.

In the case you are saying, you go to the collection and select an album.
Then press play

Yes (like I do atm).

yes, and like iTunes can do.

Once you have installed it and allowed (or told) it to 'find / import'
your collection into it's database. If I came along with a 100G
external drive filled with MP3's how would it cope. How quickly would
it cope. How would another machine in your house cope when I plugged
it in that?


Ok .. Maybe because I don't have much in it the 'point' is lost on me.

Probably to some extent yes. obviously if you only have two songs they
don't need a lot of looking through

Ah!


(I have to mention here that iTunes takes (much) longer to start than
even WMP and I don't have any 'collections' stored in either).

Not here on this mac or windows machines. Maybe there is something on
your setting.

Hmm, could be. My PC isn't as fast as your PC that I do know.


So what is All exactly (if that isn't a silly / obvious question)? ie,
Isn't All just what's below it in the list so could be selected via
'Select all' if that was your wish?

All is, for example, all the albums rather than a specific one. It is
efectively 'no filter'. Efectively it is the same as select all.

So 'yes' then. ;-)


Ok, so, it's just you prefer the app to do what I do with a file
manager?

the file manager doesn't give you the level of control that makes it
easy to do. Yes, you could do it with file manager but you would lose a
lot of functionality, and then you still have to launch something to
play it.

Good, you are seeing it from my pov now. And that last bit is no issue
for me because everything other than iTunes launches nearly instantly
so is no issue for the odd time I might need them. If you like
drinking coffee you might have the jar at the front of the cupboard or
even a coffee machine on the go all the time. I don't drink much
coffee so the jar is somewhere at the back of the cupboard and the
extra time it takes to find / make compared with tea is insignificant
considering the number of times I need to.


No you don't. You access them through explorer, which is some app with its
way of displaying stuff.

Yes, an access not playing tool. FM doesn't have volume or FF RW
buttons etc.

so yes, you want to do with multiple separate tools what I am doing with
one, which is fair enough but too much work for me!

Fair enough (and a different discussion).


iTunes is another app with its way.

I tunes is an App, FM is a tool (and I'm not being funny, I know they
are both 'apps' in your (programmer) eyes but I'm differentiating
between the two here as I believe most half literate might).

So you are calling me non half literate, thanks!

You are very welcome. ;-)

No, they are both apps, they are both tools. They appear the way they do
to make people think they are different, but they really aren't.

I know that *are* in a coding sense. I also know they are in a semi
functional sense (one get's files, one plays music etc) but I would
define one as a tool, and the other as a program, something that
allows you to be creative rather than just manage what's there.

WMV is another one with its way.

Yup, a media playing app, that's it's primary purpose.

Like I buy Fish and Chips from the Fish and Chips shop and my Kebab
from the Kebab shop. Now both shops can offer a little of the other
shops products but I choose to use each for it's primary role. That's
not to say I will never get a Kebab in the Fish shop in the same way I
might save a video from WMP but they are exceptions rather than the
rule.

But they are the same thing,

What?

so here you are getting your fish from a
fishmonger, your chips from the greengrocer, buying a cooker from comet
and going to cook them yourself.

Nooooo, you have flipped too far one way my friend. The fact I can buy
a Mac, or buy and Apple isn't the same as making my own.

Finder
is another app etc
There is no difference

There is in my view.

And that is the idea of explorer, to make it look like there is a
difference, but it isn't.

Great, I don't care what it *actually* is I care what it does.

There are a ton of windows shell plugins to
make it seem that way.

Again, different discussion. I'm talking out_of_the_box here.

One is a tool to navigate and maintain the file
system, the other has other abilities ... like volume controls and the
like. You could do without WMP (as in maintain / manage your system)
but not FM.

You could do without either if you have something different.

What!? ;-)


True, I meant more that I access the output from the scanner with FM,
as I do the results of my cameras's photographic electronics.

(btw - I assume you mean file manager by FM? correct me if I am wrong)

so yes, you are running an app to integrate what you see with the file
system, even though it isn't actually that sort of data

Great, fine, perfect, that's all I care about. (and yes FM =
FileManager)

files on cameras aren't stored the same as on your hard
disk.

They aren't? <pulls Fat32 formatted SM card from camera>

you sure it is fat32?

Meh, might be Fat(16) but not the point. ;-)


It is just that
explorer simplifies the difference to let you access it in a way that makes
sense to you.

Correct, in my interpretation of how I use one tool for access (I'm
not interested or concerned in how it achieves this) and others to
actually open / manipulate the files once located.

But explorer has already opened and manipulated the files to get them
there.

It has? I thought it opened a view of the files then copied or moved
(copy / delete) the files? TBH I'm not interested if it does actually
'open' them because I don't see the results of that in the same way as
I'd double clicked on them so for my POV they aren't opened by
explorer (irrespective of what you may say otherwise from a
programmers pov) ;-)

I could sometimes
us the app for some FM purposes but I generally don't. ie, If I want
to copy a batch of files from one drive to another I don't do it with
iTunes.

Of course not, it is for music files. But there is no reason that it
couldn't do it if it has a plugin to do it, like explorer does.

Don't care, not the point.

Ok, I know many computers users who, when I say "where do you keep
your documents" give the answer "In Word". Now you and I know they
aren't 'In Word' but in their view that's how they access their
documents.

And as such, just as valid as saying 'in explorer'.

<sigh>

They open Word then move round the file system to select their files
within Word.

In the real world the files (now) exist even if Word isn't on there.

In the same way that they exist without explorer there.

No, not the point, they weren't created by explorer.

And back to my point. FM for moving round the file system Word,
IrfanView, WMP, ZIP, Nero, Canon Printer or email attachments for
doing things *with* the files once I have selected them.

If you can't see how I can legitimately separate those two functions
then I respectfully suggest we leave that one there (or we are back to
the open / close issue). Take the spirit of what I'm saing rather than
the coding. ;-)

I can see the spirit of what you are suggesting, but can you see that
your view of files existing in explorer is no more real than the files
existing in iTunes. They exist without either of those.

Yes for iTunes (as it isn't a music generation package) yes for Word
(because it is a document generation package). And of course "the docs
could have been generated elsewhere then copied onto that machine ,
ner" but before you say that it's not the spirit of what I'm talking
about. You are going way too literal way way too off spirit. Please
try and take the words at face value and from my POV. iTunes doesn't
make music in the same way as explorer doesn't make files. Word does
make files (that's it's job). That doesn't mean with plugins explorer
couldn't be Photoshop but that's not_the_point.

Both of those applications are a means of manipulating files in
different ways. iTunes is speciallised and explorer is generalised.
Neither is more 'real'.

Ok, whatever.

Well I can 'not mind either' as long as it follows the same interface.
Like if I want to burn an image file I open a program (say Nero),
choose from the menu option 'Burn an image file', then choose the file
(Explorer stylee) and hit burn. I don't *always* like the drag n drop
thing unless it's obvious and still has the browse option as well (if
the required file isn't in easy view etc). That StreamClip is a good
example of that, one big basic box saying 'Drop file here'. Not an
array of places that may or may not allow you to drop the file.

Fair enough. I can cope with a variety of interfaces, depending on the
job.

I can sometimes cope. I'd prefer not to have to.

Ok, but given I still don't know what is ideal for what and don't have
the likes of Toast it was the best I could think of. :-(

and that is fine, as long as you accept that the limitations you see are
partly down to it being used for something it wasn't designed for.
I mean my mitsibishi FTO *could* pull a caravan.

Oh I'm willing to accept anything, as long as I know why it is the
case. I have Nero on the PC (well, the Nero Vison sub module) and it
can make a DVD movie (tracks and sections of video brought together
etc). It also let me put a single track onto a DVD video and so why
wouldn't I expect (what_I_assumed_was) an Apple equivalent to do the
same and easier?


It does, you just told me iDVD! (well, built in as in comes with,
unlike XP which has neither).

Its not built in to the OS.

Comes with. Nothing comes with XP, my point.

But yes, it is not for straight writing of a file. Unfortunatly in
common with every other large american company, writing a DVD from a
single file (I did it a few days ago from a divx) is nowhere near as
easy as it technically could be, as they feel it their duty to protect
film makers from people being able to do it, regardless if it is with
their property or not.

Oh.

That isn't a technical issue, it is a deliberate designed lack of
ability of a computer system as the manufacturers believe all their
customers are criminals.

Ok.

Not that it pisses me off or anything!

LOL

Cheers, T i m

.

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