Re: The Dock through the years

Woody <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Woody <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Rowland McDonnell <real-address-in-sig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

But you'll move your actual hands to the keyboard from the mouse rather
than just twitch a wrist a little - which is all it takes to do the
moving I'm talking about.

No you are not. You are talking about moving your wrist, clicking the
launcher, finding the panel you are looking for from a list, selecting
that list, clicking the icon you want.

I am talking of moving my hands to the keyboard (assuming they are not
already there, and most applications involve its use anyway), typing
cmd-space <keys>.

That way is faster.

No, I don't *think* my way is faster, I *know* it is faster as I used to
do it your way, and I changed as it was faster.


The trick was to make sure there was always
some edge of the Launcher visible and that was very convenient and easy
to do. It didn't often get covered completely, and if it did - well,
it's a damned sight easier to uncover the Launcher than it is to move
hands to keyboard,

No, it isn't.

It is for me.

<shrug> Fair enough, obviously I can't say.

But you did. You claimed I was wrong - no qualification at all means
you meant wrong in an absolute sort of way, didn't you? For myself, I
cannot see how I could be wrong - I don't see how anyone could find it
easier to move hand from mouse to keyboard than to uncover the Launcher
the way I had things arranged. But you said that was wrong.

You were telling me that I was wrong to do what I did, and that I was
doing it a way that was harder than your way.

I find that kind of assertion quite, quite mad.

You have to move the mouse from the launcher where you
looked to the title bar

What? Where did that idea come from? What are you thinking of? This
seems completely insane. What title bar are you talking about?

how many title bars have you got on your windows? I just have the one.

<puzzled> What of it? I have no idea what you're on about. Title bars
have nothing whatever to do with the matter.

As I said, it's a damned sight easier to uncover the Launcher than it is
to move hand from mouse to keyboard.

Title bars are completely and utterly irrelevant to that, and even if
they weren't, looking at the Launcher's titlebar is nothing remotely
like moving a hand - so what are you on about?

As I say, you sound completely insane.

[snip]

move the mouse enough
(unless you have have to go to the other corner and resize it).

Wha?

Can't be bothered with that any more.

I've no idea what you're thinking of. No idea at all. You don't seem
to have got the hang of any aspect of how I worked at all.

And you don't seem to be able the question about what are the actions
when your launcher *is* obscured by other windows.

But I've done just that. What is there to say? Uncover the thing,
that's what you do, that's what I said to do; what's the matter with
you?

I know it doesn't
ever happen to you, but it happened to me, so what would be the actions
you need?

<puzzled> Well, obviously it depends on exactly what's on screen,
doesn't it? I cannot possibly explain exactly where my eyes and mouse
pointer would go, since that depends on exactly where everything is on
screen.

think of what to type based on what I can recall of
the name of the application whose location and appearance I know in a
flash (but the name comes slower - words are always slower to retrieve
than appearance and location).

Trust me, a lot easier.

Trust me, you're wrong.

Trust me, I have tried both ways,

Trust me, just because it's easier for you doesn't mean it's easier.
Trust me: you're wrong in your assertion; many people find my way
easier. Trust me: I am not wrong.

I am not wrong.

Trust me, you are wrong. I haven't tried both ways because the keyboard
method you use is far too hard for me. I couldn't work that way - I'd
never be able to learn the keyboard shortcuts well enough for
Quicksilver to do anything but slow me down horribly, break my
concentration, and generally make things very very awkward.

The keyboard shortcuts that you said you didn't have to rememeber,
please note. But that wasn't true, was it? If you misremember a
keyboard shortcut, you've got a slow process of selection to go through.
Yes, that process is slow for me at least.

It might be easier for you - but that's not the same as easier. It's
certainly an awful lot harder for me and others like me, so trust me:
you're wrong.

Far too much brain work, far too much hand movement, and there's a mode
switch from mousing to typing as well. And you say you're lazy but you
do all that hard work? Are you mad, or what? I can't be arsed with
messing about like that, so I do it the easy way and always have done.

Yes, the way I did it before I found an easier way.

Might be easier for you. I've tried out many of these allegedly easier
ways and you know what? They're not - they're slow and clunky and I've
no idea why people use 'em.

You have already said that you haven't tried my way, so you don't know
it is worse than yours. Which is why you have no idea.

But your reasoning is nonsense. I have tried methods similar to the
ones you report, and the methods I use are easier than yours.

How can you possibly comment, anyway? You've already said you've not
tried it my way (as well as claiming that you have, which you've not
done). Which is why you have no idea.


[snip]

- it is like the mac isn't working
right, the same as using a computer without two finger scrolling.

Two finger scrolling? Who he? I scroll with one finger if I'm using
fingers - can't get two fingers on the track ball, you see, nor can I
see any reason to want to try to do so. Mighty Mouse, that is.

It is something you get on laptops. If you use two fingers on the
trackpad it scrolls.

Okay.

If you click it does the other button.

Erm? What does that mean?

Click while holding two fingers on the mouse pad

Ah! So you mean `if you click the mouse using two fingers on the track
pad rather than clicking one of the buttons, it clicks the secondary
button', yes? For those of us who have rarely used a trackpad, none of
this is stuff we know.

Do you see how I work now?

I know exactly how you work. It is exactly how I used to work.

From what you've written here, it seems to me that you did not work the
way I do and you do not understand how I work.

If you are happy with that, I have no problem, but there is no point you
telling me it is easier,

ARGH! IT *IS* EASIER!!!! But when I say that, I'm saying it's easier
for *ME* - only me. It's what *I* like, it's what works best for *ME*.
You find your own way of doing it if you like.

I am aware of that. It is eaiser for you, it isn't for me. Not really
much more to discuss.

There is the point that `easier for you' is not the same as `easier'.
This is a point I've been trying to get across to you but you don't seem
able to comprehend.

'cos you
know exactly where on the screen the thing is.

But you may not know how many windows down

You don't need to know - all you need is to be able to see part of the
Launcher, which gets clicked the instant it appears (learned reflex
action - getting the point now? The mechanisms I use for such jobs are
the very fastest ones available)

Err.. yes, you are stuck in a rut - I have already said it isn't always
visible.

And this is the bit I cannot understand - you think I'm stuck in a rut
because I use a method that you rejected in favour of a different one
that you find better for you but isn't better for me.

And this is the bit I cannot understand, if I tell you what you think
you go into a rant about how I can't possibly understand what you mean
as I don't agree with it and I am different, but it is perfectly ok for
you to say what I am thinking.

What are you on about? This is pure fantasy.

I find that a bit offensive.

Why should I give a *** about that? If you're offended, that's your
problem. I'm damned if I'm keeping my mouth shut on the grounds of
someone being offended. That's just a way of bully people into silence.

I conclude that what's best for you is not best for me - and that means
I'm stuck in a rut? Get out of here!

I am not saying you are stuck in a rut - I just think you prefer a
different way.

But you have been saying that your way is better and easier - not better
and easier for you, but better and easier /in the general case/. What
I've been trying to do is show you that this is not so: your way is not
the One True Way.

I don't see why you find it so hard to accept that what's right for you
isn't necessarily the One True Way. The fact is that other ways of
doing things are better for other people, and in many cases those ways
are ones that work out better for more people than your methods.

For example, your liking for typing in a memorised keyboard shortcut to
launch applications is not one that works well for most. But you bang
on about it as if it's the holy grail almost.

What are you on about? Do you really think I've not tried multiple ways
of getting what I want? Do you really think I've not spent a very long
time prowling around looking for the best way of doing things, reading
the software comparisons, checking out the software, installing it,
trying to use it, and so on?

And you sit there in your blinkered ignorance and tell me I'm stuck in a
rut! Well, I am, but it's not a rut that's got anything at all to do
with computers or my use of themm.

Yes. It is a rut of assuming you know what everyone else is thinking but
they don't know you.

What are you on about? You're talking utter gibberish. You've clearly
invented some sort of fantasy about my point of view and so on and
forgotten that your fantasy hasn't actually got anything to do with me
or my real point of view.

I can't work out what you think my point of view is, mind; nor where you
lunatic ideas might have come from.

And call everyone else blinkered ignorance, whereas
you alone are able to know all.

<shakes head in utter bafflement> What are you on about?

Just to reiterate, I really don't care what method you use. Maybe you
use dragthing in a way that is totally different to the way I used
dragthing, and that is fine, i don't care.

As I would expect. I'm not sure why you mentioned that.

[snip]

The next time I pressed 'ph', photoshop was at the top of the list. The
next time I typed 'ph' I pressed enter straight afterwards and didn't
even look at the list as it knows I mean photoshop.

So you /do/ rely on memory of particular key combos, then; for sure if
you get it wrong, you've not dropped yourself into a hole badly, but
it's a very slow and awkward mode of working you've just described and
the reason I've had no interest at all in these keyboard based
launchers.

Slow? It never takes more than a fraction of a second to switch to the
application I want.

<shrug> There is no way it'd ever work that quickly for me. I don't
believe it works that quickly for you in the general case.

I am not relying on normal memory, I am relying on muscle memory of what
I type.

That is normal memory. Word memory is abnormal stuff - bolted on to the
normal mental structures that every other animal has.

I always type the same, it becomes automatic, the same way as
playing a musical instrument - there isn't time for your head to tell
your hands how to do the actions, they tell your hands what the overall
part is, and your hands do the job (or I assume your subconsious).

And that's fine for frequently used applications that you can remember
the special keyboard shortcut for. But for anything else?

Not everyone's going to recall the special keyboard shortcut for
everything - and as soon as you can't recall the special keyboard
shortcut, you're slowed down terrifically.

Fair enough - you like it like that. I'll stick with the GUI methods.

Of course you'll say I'm stuck in a rut

Keep your strawmen to yourself please, I said no such thing.

Seems to me that's exactly what you said.

- but why do you have so much
trouble understanding that what's right for you is not right for me or
indeed anyone in particular?

Why do you have so much trouble understanding you appear to have no clue
what I am thinking?

I haven't a clue what this has to do with my comment. I suppose I could
counter with `Why do you keep misinterpreting what I write so badly?'

And `Where the hell did that latest lunatic idea come from?'

Now, *I* don't have any trouble with words as such - but when you're
working in a non-wordy fashion (as I learnt to, and use a lot because
it's incredibly powerful and fast and efficient - avoid the words and
you can use faster brain processes: words are slow and awkward devices)
and you want to switch to word mode - well, it's a mode switch.
Brainache. Minimise them, that's what you want to do.

ok, I am crap at words, and really don't like them, but I can remember a
group of letters for an application with no concious thought.

I'm good at words and love playing with them, but I can't keep a link
between an arbitrary groups of letters and anything else in my head
without major major effort (and I really do mean major effort). Never
mind conscious thought or not: I find that kind of thing very very hard.

I always needed my Emacs reference card back in the days when I used the
thing.

Oh, I didn't bother with emacs - couldn't handle that it made no sense
to me.

<shrug> It was either that or vi. Emacs had better docs. I've no idea
how it could make or not make sense to anyone. `Sense'? It's software
- utterly arbitrary.


[snip]

The Spotlight method in particular just isn't remotely workable
as far as I can tell - but that's because Spotlight's so crap.

Indeed - that is unusable for application launch. The only time it is
good is emails.

Spotlight has proven almost completely useless as far as I'm concerned.
It can't even seem to do a reliable search on filenames, never mind
anything else. And seeing as I've no idea how to tell what kind of
files it does index - oh god I loathe the thing, I really do.

It makes my life much easier when I have to do the accounts and check
the email, so I ignore how bad it is for everything else.,

Righto - well, if you've found a use for it, good luck to you. I've not
found a use for it. I wish I had the old fashioned straightforward
`Find' command available.

Oh yes, I would too for files. I think they went to the extreme in
spotlight. It is great in emails, it is useless for files.

I have found that it's useless for everything. Emails? I've never
considered seeing if Spotlight can find anything in email mailboxes at
all. I doubt it can. It's certainly incapable of finding almost
anything I'm looking for - utter ***.

Or at least
it isn't totally useless for files, but the way they have implimented it
is crap, and the fact there isn't a 'find this file called xx' is also
crap.

Makes it nigh on useless to me.

As it is, there doesn't seem to be a way to
search for a file on partial filename with Spotlight here. Off-pissing,
to put it mildly.

If you start the word with a ' or a " it takes it as a filename. Well
advertised feature that.

It's a poorly documented feature because there is no manual.

I've never seen that point mentioned in an advert or in any Apple
documentation - which is no surprise, since Apple doesn't provide real
user documentation any more. Mac Help is no help at all to me when it
comes to learning anything about how to use my computer - there's
usually nothing to be read on the topics I want to learn about, and in
any case, the presentation of all the information in Mac Help seems
designed to make it very very hard to learn and keep track of stuff.
Fucking *AWFUL* pile of crap, it really is.

And in any case, it's silly to expect people to learn how to use their
computers from adverts. Can't be done and anyway it's a horribly
expensive way to do it - do I have to collect all the Mac magazines and
whatnot to get all the relevant adverts to learn how to use my OS?
Shouldn't have to; there should be a manual.

I had, until now, absolutely no idea that a single quote worked, for
example - so it's a very poorly documented feature, almost a hidden
feature, and the absence of any manual for Spotlight or MacOS X from
Apple means that you really cannot possibly claim that it's a well
*documented* feature.

There is nothing to tell the normal end user how to use his computer in
a fashion that's accessible to the general population. You might call a
feature well /advertised/, but that's irrelevant: you can't use
advertising as your software manual, can you now?

Apple's demonstrated deep contempt for its users for many years by
refusing to supply manuals for its software. It's a big usability
problem: I cannot learn how to use software from on-line help. Nor can
most people. I used to teach. Don't think about arguing with me on
this one.

And to be getting on with: yes, Spotlight does what you say. And I find
that it takes whatever you put after that leading quote mark as the full
filename, and I cannot persuade it to search for a partial filename.

Makes it a big useless, really.

[snip]

Rowland.

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