Re: Mathemagickal Dullskuggery


Oz wrote:
Oh No <notI@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes

Measurement of Doppler is routine along with radar (more strictly
ranging) these days. The predicted shift is way above measurement
accuracy, when you remember that a tiny inward acceleration yields a
quite noticeable alteration in orbital velocity.

Yes, but NOT if it is an artefact of franciscan theory.

I think you have this wrong.

1.8 m/s difference in the speed of the earths orbit, or 2.2 m/s in the
speed of Mars is highly noticeable by Doppler navigation systems, it
seems to me.

One has to explain why MOND works as an artifact of the theory in the
Milky Way (in which we are bound) and not in the solar system (in which
we are also bound). One has to explain the unexplained interpolation
function, or rather replace it. Original MOND would have had little
MONDian acceleration at 1.8a_0, but now experimental evidence on
globular clusters has a large amount, as predicted by the
teleconnection.

Most, almost certainly all, ranging will be done by time of flight using
pulses on the wavetrain. I don't think frT predicts any difference for
time of flight.

As the Pioneer shift
clearly is present in two way Doppler, it could not have been missed in
routine measurements.

I think this is untrue. Pioneer shift is a tiny effect seen on a very
stable platform, very far away indeed whose very low power requires very
long integration (locking) times. Ranging was not done on pioneer when
it was that far away, but is on pretty well all current satellites.

I am not concerned about direct measurements of the acceleration on a
satellite on a radial path, like Pioneer. We know that is not
detectable inside of Saturn anyway, due to noise, solar radiation
pressure etc. It is the very noticeable increase in orbital velocity
this acceleration would produce when included (even at the reduced MOND
level) in the motion of a planet, or even in the orbit of a satellite
about the earth (still in the order of mm/s, while they meausure to
microns/s).


I assume it DOES happen, but cannot be currently observed.

Possibly, if the idea expressed in the other post that our ability to
detect it depends on the frequency of the radar signal used.

Eh?

This is a really sound idea. Pay attention. :-). A 1MHz signal (the
effective Doppler rate as encoded onto the Pioneer S-band carrier
signal) defines a distance scale of 300m. Because of all the equipment
sent to Mars we have more accurate measurement there than any other
planet, and can measure its position to about 4m (iirc). Hence the
wavefunction is collapsing at a rate two orders of magnitude faster
that the frequency of the signal being measured, hence we only measure
a classical effect. To measure the anomalous affect we have to be using
a Doppler signal of higher frequency than the timescale for the
collapse of the wavefunction. Ergo, only a classical prediction is made
for Doppler at Mars, no MOND effect.

Saturn is 7 times further than Mars from the sun, so even if
measurement at that distance was as good it would give us a distance
scale c30m. Actually measurement there is not as good; 300m is probably
a pretty good estimate of the distance scale which we can define in the
solar system at the orbit of saturn, i.e. a reasonable estimate of the
accuracy to which position of pioneer could be known at the point when
the effect "switched on". Unfortunately Anderson does not give a figure
for this, but I am in the right ballpark.

As an idea
that is fully justifiable, and if correct should yield a prediction of
the required frequency at which the shift becomes observable. I'm not
sure just now how to calculate the critical frequency, but hopefully
that will gradually become clear to me over the next few weeks. The
basic idea is that the more accurate our measurements of position (as
for near objects) the higher the frequency at which the shift becomes
apparent.

I think you are wasting your time.

All possibilities must be eliminated to arrive at a solid argument.
Eliminating them is never a waste of time. One cannot simply
hypothesise and hope.

.

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