Re: Mathemagickal Dullskuggery


Oz wrote:
Oh No <notI@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes

Well I have been around the circle once again, and I am essentially
back
where I started.

I hope its a spiral and not a circle.
With luck an upwards spiral.

It doesn't always feel like it, but just at the moment I think it is,
very much so.

The path of Pioneer is Newtonian, but because Pioneer
is to drift off into an expanding space, expansion must be taken into
account when it is regarded as an initial state for a quantum motion
from it to us. But since the fixed frame of the solar system, does not
expand, expansion is not present in wave motions in the solar system.

I don;t know why you are so sure that there is no fancescan doppler.
Nobody has dried to measure it within the solar system to a level of
accuracy (that is with other error sources suppressed) it would show ap
at.

Measurement of Doppler is routine along with radar (more strictly
ranging) these days. The predicted shift is way above measurement
accuracy, when you remember that a tiny inward acceleration yields a
quite noticeable alteration in orbital velocity. As the Pioneer shift
clearly is present in two way Doppler, it could not have been missed in
routine measurements.

I assume it DOES happen, but cannot be currently observed.

Possibly, if the idea expressed in the other post that our ability to
detect it depends on the frequency of the radar signal used. As an idea
that is fully justifiable, and if correct should yield a prediction of
the required frequency at which the shift becomes observable. I'm not
sure just now how to calculate the critical frequency, but hopefully
that will gradually become clear to me over the next few weeks. The
basic idea is that the more accurate our measurements of position (as
for near objects) the higher the frequency at which the shift becomes
apparent.


Despite protestations that this does not make sense, actually the only
thing which does not make sense is thinking that a photon is a wave
somehow present in a pre-existent space. This viewpoint does not make
sense even in standard quantum theory, and is understood by at least
those who adhere to the orthodox interpretations that the wave is just
mathemagickal dullskuggery. The only new feature is that the
dullskuggery works a little differently when expansion is required for
a
description of the path of the reference matter in the distant body.

I can't see this as a problem. Typically reference frames measure the
same thing differently. In fact, that's the whole point.

Good. That is a step forward, as it indicates that I have at last said
what I have been trying to say in a way that makes some sense.

The other thing, which I did not take account of before, is that the
shift in Doppler is preserved in the relationship between quantum and
classical wave frequencies in the distant object, so that it is present

in two way as well as in one way Doppler measurements.

Hmmm....
You will have to be MUCH more clear.

That is why I so much appreciate being able to discuss things in
formulation. It is in the nature of new ways of thinking of things
that they are never clear at first.

Also I was putting down the shift to acceleration in time. Actually it
is down to the weird stretching of quantum coordinates, so that where
classically the expansion rate would be equal to Hubble, now it is half

hubble, so that the illusory acceleration is given by the difference,
i.e. by an inward acceleration of half hubble, which like the expansion

itself gets doubled up and appears as Hc.

I had assumed this is what you always meant.
Nothing else seemed to be consistent.

It was one of these ideas poorly expressed, and what I had said in the
paper was slightly different.

.

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