Re: Irish test Re: Culling by suffocation

On Thu, 25 May 2006 10:10:01 +0100, AJH <sylva@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Thu, 25 May 2006 00:58:04 +0100, John Beardmore
<wookie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


If the literature is right, more than 10% CO in the blood causes
headache.

It seems to me that it is more than 10% of the haemoglobin locked to
CO, and thus not available for respiration, that is being measured.
What I cannot find is if this causes any side effect that other oxygen
starvation wouldn't cause. E.G. what combines with the haemoglobin if
the atmosphere is purely inert? There must be a low bond energy
between O,CO or CO2 to haemoglobin for the exchange to take place in
the lungs, but surely N2 or Argon will not enter into any such bond.


I've not seen any report, apart from Ozs conjecture, that this
is only as the concentration is decreasing, have you ?

No but timescale is mentioned in a number of reports, I quoted one of
2 hours. This made me think that it may be a breakdown product (red
corpuscle maybe) concentration increasing in the blood before the
kidneys could excrete it.

I was only advocating CO if administered at >1% of the atmosphere and
quickly.


and
circumstantial evidence that groups of people do nothing to arouse
themselves when subjected to CO poisoning.

Which again doesn't prove much either, as I've pointed out on the basis
of experience.

NO but a number of us have pointed out that groups of people have been
found dead by CO poisoning without any apparent signs of agony.

If I feel really ill, (and these symptoms are like very bad influenza),
I tend to go to bed and sleep it off. In my case the faulty gas heater
was in the room I was sleeping in. How was I supposed to know that,

That's a red herring, I was not trying to provide a means of warning
humans that they were in danger. I was responding to a suggestion that
CO could be used to gas chickens, though originally I had restricted
myself to removing oxygen and carbon dioxide from the atmosphere they
were breathing.

I have previously said that I didn't know if CO was a humane poison, I
am still unsure but it doesn't look bad if administered correctly.


I don't mean to sound angry, but I don't quite understand what you don't
get about this ?


I understand all that you are saying I think, one has to make a
judgment based on all the alternatives. The barbiturate route may be
the best method, I was trying to offer possibilities that matched the
scale and speed necessary and could be deployed in fairly short order,
I do not claim any expertise in poultry management or health.

In the event the powers that be seem to have plumped for a method that
I had rejected as causing unnecessary suffering to the birds by using
CO2.

If I were involved in the clear up I am sure I would prefer to handle
carcases that had not been distressed during their demise, simply
because of the mess.

I've been wondering whether the powers that be shy away from the use
of CO or any other poisonous gas because of the potential risk to
humans. After all, the culling is to be done in buildings which are
not purpose-built killing chambers. The risks to humans might be
very small but the public relations aspects might be tricky where
the buildings are close to human habitation.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from ukba)
.

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