Re: Culling by suffocation

In message <1147239555.797017.230920@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Oh No <notI@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
Thus spake John Beardmore <wookie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

If the name of the game is excluding oxygen, PLEASE give me one good
reason why N2 should be any less effective, especially if it can be
introduced as a cool layer from the bottom to give each bird a swift,
non irritant drop in local ppO2 as air is displaced out thought a vent
at the top of the house ?

It then has to be kept there for an hour.

It only has to be cool during filling.


The reason for the mixture seems to be that it

is readily available as it is used in welding, and the CO2 element is
toxic in concentration. These are all components taken from air in the
first place

Unless CO2 is ever harvested from flue gasses or made by burning fossil
fuels on site ?

Even so, using it does not add to the amount produced from fossil
fuels.

N2 will escape more rapidly and be less effective for that
reason,

Unless it goes in cold, forming a clean layer as it rises up the house
displacing the air, the house is sealed ?

A polythene sheet isn't going to be brilliantly sealed.

Silicon mastic and a small inward flow for an hour if necessary ?

Doesn't sound like rocket science.


as quite a density of suffocating gas is required.

Not a problem with the above ?

Not insurmountable. I just think more N2 than Ar would be required. The

purpose of the Ar/CO2 mix seems to be that death is quicker,

Why do you think that ?


as against

which the CO2 must cause some discomfort.

My guess is that CO2 will be quicker as the bird will be stressed and may struggle to breathe more, thereby faster consuming the little O2 its body contains.


3. Gas circulation. Won't the building's normal fans be good enough?

Probably not once the polythene sheet is in place. It seems to take
about 30 mins to adequately fill the required volume to the required
density. It would take longer to fill with N2, since the denser gas
will
be the one which tends to hang around.

Which denser gas ?

The Ar mix will displace air more effectively than N2, imv. Can't
quantify it, however. If tests have been done, I would accept the
results, despite dodgy aspects in the write-up. If I was a civil
servant
making some decision or recommendation I would also expect to have seen

better reports from the people who actually did the tests. What we saw
was a report on the reports.

OK, but we don't know what tests have been done or under what conditions they may have been done, e.g. temperature at which the gasses were introduced, the discomfort the low temperatures etc might cause.

As such I'm not inclined to especially inclined to accept any firm conclusion !


4. Barbiturates in the water. Disposal of the birds has to be done anyway.
Would there be any "toxic waste type" legislation problems with handling
the birds or disposing of the water afterwards?

I don't think so. They will be put in plastic sacks and incinerated.
One
problem with barbs in the water may be that the birds may pass out
before drinking a lethal dose, but if they are sealed in sacks while
unconscious I doubt they will come round before they suffocate.

Do you want much doubt around major welfare issues ?

Not really.

Good !


I think one would want to look at ways of improving the
system to ensure this does not happen in practice. I suspect barbs are
a
problem, because it may take too long to collect up the unconscious
birds. Other poisons may be possible.

As far as I can see, you have to collect them however you kill them.


Cheers, J/.
--
John Beardmore
.

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