Re: Hydro or Wind Power

Sorry about messing about with the headers!

"sarah"
> Pat Gardiner >
>> "sarah" <
>> > Peter Duncanson >> >
>> >> , Malcolm
>> >>
>> >> wrote:
> [-]
>> >> >>> UBA has a politburo
>> >> >>
>> >> >>You can than Jonathon Miller former Sunday Times columnist for that.
>> >> >>I
>> >> >>can't claim credit.
>> >> >>
>> >> >He mentioned a "politburo" on ukba, did he?
>> >>
>> >> He did. He was distinctly uncomplimentary.
>> >> His message and the replies can be found at:
>> >> http://tinyurl.com/avb4t
>> >
>> > One reason for his bitterness is that UKBA had exposed his 'invention'
>> > of an oral vaccine for FMD earliery that year. Miller had published at
>> > least one column castigating the slaughter/contiguous cull because (he
>> > said) the UK could be using oral vaccination instead. He had in fact
>> > conflated research on FMD vaccine with research on oral rabies (I think
>> > it was) vaccine, but he consistently refused to admit any possibility
>> > of
>> > error. When I found proof it was an error, he claimed it was a
>> > perfectly
>> > reasonable mistake. I think I was a trifle harsh with him about the
>> > matter.
>>
>> I think it would be helpful to give you an outside view.
>>
>> I have never taken any view on whether vaccination was or was not a
>> solution
>> to the 2001 FMD outbreak, so at that stage was very neutral on the
>> matter.
>> There was no reason to side with one side or the other in the argument
>> that
>> followed. His views were not extreme or strange. They were held by many
>> people
>
> From past experience you're incapable of following a reasoned argument,
> but I will nonetheless point out that some of those people agreed with
> him because they'd read his column without realising he was promoting
> something that DID NOT EXIST. For a man in his position to make that
> mistake at that time was ... 'irresponsible' is far too mild a word.
>
>> But it was not an argument. It was a large, seemingly co-ordinated, group
>> baiting the man. It became endless and vicious taunting - extremely
>> damaging
>> to farming.
>
> Rubbish. If the vaccine he'd described existed, then vast sums of money
> and incalculable mental anguish had been wasted. Were being wasted. It
> was incredibly important; perhaps your faulty memory is failing you once
> again. Miller is -- or was -- supposed to be a reputable journalist,
> writing about a *factual* matter. He should have been able to state
> almost instantly the source of his information about the vaccine. But he
> wouldn't, he couldn't, he didn't. He waffled, he complained.
>>
>> He was a top columnist in Britain's top newspaper, farming friendly too.
>> Under the constant pressure of the familiar "Prove it" and "Show us the
>> evidence" coming from multiple posters, he cracked and went one step too
>> far
>> to try to defend his position.
>
> You do yourself no service in trying to defend the man. You're bad, but
> at least your fantasies aren't on the streets influencing the
> easily-led.
>
>> That is what happens to the victims of bullying. Eventually under the
>> constant pressure, they crack.
>>
>> You all pounced. It was a nauseating performance from where I sat.
>> Expressions of mutual glee, congratulations passed backwards and
>> forwards.
>> Primitive and sinister.
>
> If I didn't have work to do I'd go back and check, but I'm think you're
> overstating the case -- and I'm certain you've forgotten the tone of
> Miller's own posts and just how short tempers were at that time.
>
>> Then the coup de grace, somebody wrote to his employers and complained.
>>
>> "Trifle harsh" is an understatement, although I do know it was not you
>> personally that wrote to the Times.
>>
>> Miller, to his credit, took no revenge as far as I know.
>>
>> It was only later that I realised that he was very friendly to the
>> daughter
>> of a former PM and also a former Ambassador to Washington.
>
> I neither knew nor cared. The only thing that mattered here, then as
> now, was the truth.
>
>> What an own goal! I don't know how damaging it was to Miller's career or
>> even whether he cares. But the idea that his friends do not care or do
>> not
>> have a view that was passed back to Washington is naive in the extreme.
>>
>> Britain's FMD crisis is and was big news in the US.
>>
>> Of course, the interrelationships of people that attacked Miller so
>> viciously, their business interests and hobbies are going to come under
>> scrutiny.
>>
>> Once relationships and commercial interests not immediately obvious
>> became
>> apparent, you went under observation.
>>
>> I was tipped off and tried to warn you that it was not wise to carry on
>> this
>> way. I got the same street gang treatment yet again on this and other
>> matters.
>
> 'Street gang' my foot. You've been asked for proof of your allegations;
> like Miller you consistently fail to provide it. His story was such that
> a single email message was able to ascertain the truth; your fantasies
> are so far-fetched that they're beyond proof. I mean, I thought the
> alleged 'Vancian Cult' was a joke when you started it, but I've begun to
> realise you're *serious*. I thought people capable of that level of
> self-delusion existed only in the pages of the American supermarket
> tabloids -- and most of them (I assumed) were inventd by journalists.
> But no, here you are.
>
>> I know that my campaign to get the SVS sorted out would have gone much
>> more
>> smoothly had I not been so bullied and harassed that I too sometimes went
>> further than was wise. I can well understand Miller overstepping the
>> mark.
>
> Of course you can; you're in the same boat. The solution, of course, is
> to present a simple summary of your facts for judgement. Miller couldn't
> because he had no factual basis for that story. As yet you haven't done
> so either -- so after, what, 4 years? we draw our own conclusions.
> Frankly, if you think this is bullying it's as well you went into
> business and stayed clear of academia; a short sojourn in any reputable
> school of physical sciences would have taught you the importance of
> confirming your facts before refining and publishing your theories for
> criticism by your peers. That's the basis of reputable research as
> opposed to journalism.
>>
>> It is not time to retreat. It is time to pack it all up.
>>
>> However, I'm pleased to notice some sense of regret. I'm sure others have
>> picked that up too.
>
> Regret for what, and on whose part? If you don't like it here,
> unsubscribe and get a real life. I've said it before and I'll say it
> again: your fixation with this group is damaging your mental health.

I will answer the last point first. As I have told you on many occasions I
have no record of mental illness and I don't think anyone who knows me
thinks that I do. The fact that you and your pals are reduced to that kind
of remark merely undermines your right to be taken seriously.

You mistake a genuine concern for the underdog and a liking for strict
observance with the law, with an obsession. I also got into this by
accident. A fantasy land populated by adult gamesters is not my natural or
preferred environment

I'm quite happy to leave the rest on the record with just a couple of
general comments.

You are right, behaviour in the academic world is generally appalling,
savage and unpleasant. There is no need for you to copy them.

Anyway, the recent performance of British veterinary science is hardly
anything to be proud of, even in their own estimation. If that is their
standard, we would be better with a stripped down service, importing the
research and any additional foot soldiers from abroad.

I'm sure that this is already happening. It will save a fortune and improve
the service to farmers. Why should the taxpayer pay to reinvent the wheel in
Britain? In the case of veterinary science it is usually square and falls
off at the first bump.

The average dockside is a haven of peace and kindness alongside academia. A
spell at a university does not excuse bullying once you leave. It is also
dangerous and counter productive in the real world. You meet brick walls
like me.

People like me, don't like bullying. Although all of us did it as part of
childhood, we were educated out of it and were taught to respect "fair
play."

If Miller was that far off beam and influential, the regular scientists
would have spoken to his editor. Hopefuly politely.

Your (collective) scragging, however angry you felt was not nice. The
overwhelming impression is of a rather unbalanced mutually congratulatory
group of pseudo-scientists role-playing in the real world.

People well able to launch damaging attacks on anyone who stands in their
way, but completely unable to take any criticism.

--
Regards
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com

> sarah
>
>
> --
> Think of it as evolution in action.



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Hydro or Wind Power
    ... >> One reason for his bitterness is that UKBA had exposed his 'invention' ... >> of an oral vaccine for FMD earliery that year. ... > to the 2001 FMD outbreak, so at that stage was very neutral on the matter. ... > Miller, to his credit, took no revenge as far as I know. ...
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  • Re: in the beginning...
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  • Re: Hydro or Wind Power
    ... > of an oral vaccine for FMD earliery that year. ... His views were not extreme or strange. ... Miller, to his credit, took no revenge as far as I know. ...
    (uk.business.agriculture)
  • Re: in the beginning...
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