Re: Belief in Reincarnation is a Product of Evolution

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:53:21 -0700 (PDT), DharmaTroll <dharmatroll@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Jun 9, 8:18 pm, "jerry" <jroli...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"DharmaTroll" <dharmatr...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:509e0ee3->
I'm not the believer here, and bernie or jesus or whoever can't debate
his way out of a paper bag -- I only fear that intelligent posters
like Tang might win the debate. But when I'm bored I play whack-a-
mole with the rodents who claim to be mystical oracles.

And yes, when I see people babble about "facts" only to reduce
dissonance, such as needing to feel that there is a kind of
conservation of justice law, I see fear and clinging -- so when I see
a poster say such silly things, I make the inference. I'm giving the
benefit of the doubt -- it could be stupidity, not fear, as some folks
simply follow whatever the closest and most charismatic authority
happens to be.

In terms of physical energy expended perhaps, but relating this to
human values is absurd -- that's my point.

> --DharmaTroll

There is no way to post on the ng's without a self arising, unless it is
with a selfless intent. You have found the way to peace and contentment and
you wish that all could share in this. Then your posts would be free of
elitism, playing games for self amusement, name calling and judgments.

Oh, you know where you can shove your way to peace and contentment.

Were I enlightened and perfectly serene, I wouldn't waste my time with
the rogues and hucksters in usenet hell.

I'm just making the point that neither I nor you nor any bozo posting
here has any clue whether or not there exists some mystical cosmic
justice conservation principle or mechanism. So when someone babbles
that some mystical mumbo-jumbo that makes them feel secure is a
'fact', I simply point out how really loony and absurd such a claim
is. It doesn't take an awakened, serene, enlightened superhero to see
that -- any reasonably intelligent and educated schmuck can figure it
out.

You neglected to answer my question as to the point of
reference of your judgements.

I don't need credentials to make sense -- my arguments stand on their
own merits, you see. Think I'm wrong, then attack my arguments.
Pointing out that I'm not awakened will only get me to agree with you
about that, but it won't weaken my arguments one bit.

The self does not like to be revealed, since this is the first
step in its demise.

More Hindoodoo. There is no 'self' that can have a 'demise'. I think
that talk is a crock. It reminds me of a lot of Freudian
psychoanalysis, which is quite interesting and wonderfully
metaphorical but often just doesn't refer to anything and ends up
useless. Same with Hinduist stuff about some sneaky evil self that is
out for self-preservation. There ain't no such critter. It's just
more made-up fluff, more conceptual baggage.

And using the silly Hinduist "destroy the self" talk as a character
attack on me is beyond silly. It's like sicking the ghosts and
gandhabbas and devas on me. Get back to the issue, which is that none
of us has a clue whether or not some cosmic justice conservation
principle exists, and that there is no evidence for such, but we hold
onto the idea without good reason because it comforts us.

--DharmaTroll

The world is unjust because people can't get what they want,
and even if they do get what they want, they don't want it.
They don't know what they want, but they want it anyway.

This is the tail wagging the dog. It just will never happen.
The cultural human criteria (delusion) is designed to fail,
beginning, middle, and end. Why play such a losing game?
Because folks don't even realize that 'life' is just a game
that they're playing. They think it's real. They take it
seriously as a matter of 'life and death'. It's all really
just a matter of opinion drummed into everyone from
all sides 24/7. "This is how it is, and here's how to
think and feel about it. Film at 11."

No doubt it's a comfort to know the facts of life, even if
they aren't actually factual. Religious nutters have their
case, and hard materialist nutters have their case, all
rationally supportable, but in all cases nobody really
knows anything about anything. They just have opinions.

There are definite limits to human understanding, and
until one faces that squarely he will continue to have
ignorant opinions and make a fool of himself.

Who can comprehend either the 'creation-beginning' of the
cosmos from nothing, at no time, in no place, without a cause
or a reason? Or the only other option, eternal existence with no
beginning? (Also without a cause or a reason.) Everything must
have a cause or a reason. Except the world that we live in.

No one can understand either proposition. So they put it aside
and play with sticks and mud, calling themselves wiser than
all the rest. Nobody knows what they're doing.

Who can understand that the cosmos is finite but unbounded?
It has no outer surface, no edge, no shape, no true center. It
contains itself, with every point equally central. Space-time
is expanding, but it isn't expanding into anything, because
outside of space, there is no space, and outside of time, there
is no time. There's not even nothing outside of the universe.
We're not just a bubble in the nothingness. We're all there
-physically- is or ever could be. There is no nothing beyond
this universe. But unaccountably, we all and everything
came from ?that?, whatever-it-isn't.

We can't visualize it. We can't visualize space-time, nor even
understand the space and time that we 'exist' in. What is time?
Nobody has ever -physically- seen it. Nobody knows. Nobody
can understand it. So we just fiddle with our toys and quarrel
about who is bigger than the other, or who gets more than the other.

Quantum physics has discovered the dual nature of energy,
and the dual nature of even matter that exists in at least two
contradictory states at the same time. (And in the case of
electrons and even atoms, with no definite location in space.)
Can anyone grasp that? This is what we are made of, and we
think we know something about the world and ourselves in
spite of our inability to grasp the paradoxical fundamentals
of (scientific) nature - or even of our own mental selves.

Einsteinian space-time and quantum physics can't be
visualized or made into a physical model we could see.
They are beyond ordinary human understanding, even though
they are the scientifically accepted facts of life. We only know
of them indirectly through math and undeniable experiments.
(Undeniable only on their own acceptable terms that are firmly
grounded in their own acceptable terms, circularly.)

We don't even understand ourselves. When we think and feel,
we don't even know that we're thinking and feeling. We act
without knowing that we act. Not the what, or the why or the how.
We constantly rationalize excuses for our own bad behavior.

But we're only fooling ourselves. We can easily see that every
other person is a fool. But everyone supposes that he alone is wise.

There is no knowing. Until one admits that and gives up
playing childish games like judging the world, self, and others
according to his favorite ignorant prejudices, one will be
playing the fool and getting punished for it.

But wouldn't that be some sort of justice?




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