great expectations [ waz Re: Wrong Focus (Was: Wrong Question)


"George Cherry" <GWCherryHatesGreenEggsAndSpam@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message news:Cp-dnYzN-tcu0wjYnZ2dnUVZ_o-knZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<snipping>
I hear people say the same sort of things about David Koresh and Jim
Jones and their understanding of Christian principles. But man, did
they crash and burn. And some would argue that both have survivors
who
appear to be fairly normal, even sweet, people. Interesting, eh?

Robert replied:

Not really. I have had contact with moonies, Hare Krishnas,
Nicherinites, and deeply cultish Evangelicals, and Trungpa and his
followers did not have the cultish trappings of any of those groups. I
just think that as someone who never met the guy or hung around with
his
students, that you just don't know what you are talking about. He had
some serious problems as a human being, I will admit, but he was not in
any way comparable to David Koresh and other such dangerous leaders.
To
make that comparison is just ignorant.

Robert

Hi Robert,

Yes, it is. Actually quite ignorant. I know many people who were
students of Trungpa, and they have gone on to live brilliant lives.
Pema Chodron for one. Whose books are everywhere just now, and
rightfully so. She writes good stuff.

What's your favorite? In general I trust women more
than men. Most men are crazy. Testosterone makes
bad human beings, apparently. This isn't
noticed or noted often enough. I think I'm smarter
than my wife, but she's the really constructive force
around here: takes care of us while I sit back and
have delusions of good sense and wisdom.

Back to Trungpa himself, his books are absolutely brilliant and quite
timeless. The single best book that comes to mind (among so many good
ones) is "Cutting through spiritual materialism"... something that I
would consider a MUST read for anyone, as it cuts across all sectarian
lines, not only for buddhists, but for any religion. Spiritual
Materialism, the subject of the book, is something we see around here
often enough too!

He was not a cult leader, in fact he behaved in ways that discouraged
cultishness from what I have heard, from his actual students. He
drank and he smoked, and he picked a despot for a successor when he
died.

But I wonder, if he was awake and aware, why
he chose unwise behaviors. What's going on?

Some said he did it as a parody of western behavior, as a
lesson to us.

That sounds crazy. To act foolishly in order to
expose foolishness. Does one have to add to
the mess to illustrate the mess?

Whether that was the actual case isn't important.
Trungpa made you think, and what he taught in all his books was
buddhist, through and through. Read his books if you really want to
know, don't just judge the guy on superficialities. Looking for
perfection in human beings is going to be an exercise in futility.
Trungpa taught basic sanity and basic freedom.

All teachers are human. We should get over that fact. Practice and
find out your truth for yourself and stop looking for perfection.
Only "true believers" seek perfection. It is something we ought to
stop holding up like an idol, and instead learn "basic sanity" and
"basic freedom".... even freedom from imagining perfection in human
beings. Human beings all eat, sleep, and ***, just like we all do.

I often used to joke that around here that "even a broken clock is
right twice a day." That is how everything is. If you find what you
think is perfection, it is because you don't know it well enough, but
often what you do know, that appears to be perfection, can be quite
enough to liberate you yourself, if you get my drift.

Liberated? Liberated from what? Desire? Dislike?
What was Trungpa liberated from? Not from booze
and nicotine apparently. If he was perceptive and
had little dust in his eyes, why didn't he see that his
successor was a despot? One can always excuse
behaviors by saying that they are cunning teachings.
But thanks for your take on his teaching and writing.
I more or less trust you. But you seem busy and I
often wonder why you hang out here and what you
get from this ng. You have a teacher and a sangha
apparently. What does this ng do for you?

nisargadatta maharaj was taken to task
for smoking and eating red meat by people
in india whose traditions as far as meditation
and such normally eshew these types of
activities.

ken wilbur chided ramana maharshi due to
the physical condition maharshi was in.
wilbur felt that maharshi should have been
a basketball star or something due to the notion
that maharshi was seen to be 'enlightened'.

valmiki, a country sage was said to have
committed many murders in his time.
he kept a small pebble for each murder
and was said to have filled 7 large vessels
with pebbles by the time he died.

liberation may not be a conducive vehicle
to the expectations of those seeking an
expansion of their horizon of awareness,
and indeed those very expectations are
probably one of the main factors which
stop one from realizing an expansion
of that horizon of awareness.


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