Re: I guess this is where I end up............


"brian mitchell" <brainmill@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
Advaita Bob wrote:
brian mitchell wrote:

Human culture is
based on the sense that we have capabilities and aspirations beyond
the
instinctive necessities of nature. Notions of justice and fairness
seem
to be so basic to our minds that children latch onto them very early.

Jonathan explained why. Children copy and learn what they see.

I respect Jonathan because he seems to have been prepared to explore his
own mentality directly without just following given maps, but I find I
don't always agree with his conclusions, so to say "Jonathan has
explained..." is not for me the 'Truth which stops the mouth of
thought.'

Me neither. I mean, it was only one 'strand' of thought. Another might go
like this. The Buddha equated craving (the will to exist, to re-exist, to
become more and more etc.), volition, mental volition and kamma. In effect,
that was near enough the 'will of mind' when 'turned' by and 'aligned with'
the 'will of the body'. (Patanjali has "the strong desire for life which
dominates even the learned/wise"). The Buddha has it that hatred, greed and
delusion 'trickle' from pain, pleasure and neither to the extent that the
mind 'links on' to them or somesuch.

In his representation of dark kamma leading to dark result (e.g. as per the
Kalamas Sutta) hatred, greed and delusion give rise to a bunch of 'dark'
deeds which give rise to long term pain and suffering. With bright kamma
leading to bright result, the absence of hatred greed and delusion gives
rise to the deeds characterized by the absence of the previous-listed
'darkness' which give rise to long-term welfare and benefit or somesuch.
With "the volition to abandon both dark and bright (and mixed) kamma"
(volition and deeds in accordance with the eightfold path, I think) this
leads to "no result".

So *in effect*, the 'will of the body' (as actualized via 'turning' the
mind) is equated with dark kamma, pain and suffering. and is 'the enemy'.
The 'will of the mind' (un-'turned' by the 'will of the body') is equated
with bright kamma and welfare and benefit or similar and is OK although
still impermanent, conditioned, unsatisfactory etc. And 'the will aligned to
nibbana' is equated with leading to no result, which is ideal.

I can't go for all this, for any number of reasons. One is that it accords
the mind negligible "will of its own" and makes it pretty much
"clean-up-able". Even subtler problems like 'self' and 'ignorance' are
represented in terms of the mind being inadvertently 'turned' by what comes
at it via the sense-bases - 'misinterpreting' it.

I accord the mind way more weight in the mix than this and a 'will of its
own' to defend its 'self' and reproduce itself and analogous painful and
pleasurable emotions in relation to the thwarting and satisfaction of those.

This makes much more sense of all sorts of phenomena. E.g. 'self-harm' and
suicide. Where the mind's 'will' predominates over the body's 'will' as per
"(bodily) Death Before (mental) Dishonour" etc. It is 'as if' the
(inferrable) mind's and body's 'wills' compete with each other for use of
the same experiential 'screens'. E.g. it is easier to play a tune while
visualizing a picture (sensory sounds + mental pictures) or think a tune
while painting a picture (mental sounds + sensory pictures) than to try and
play one tune while thinking another incompatible one (sensory and mental
competing for sound 'screen') or to try and paint a picture while
visualizing an incompatible one in the same visual field (sensory and mental
competing for same picture 'screen').

Likewise, Freud had it something like that the arts were 'sublimated' sex.
Which is like saying that bodily reproduction and mental reproduction are
competitors and the more one is, the less the other is. Likewise, you can
stimulate anger and/or fear by threatening either the bodily 'self' or the
mind's 'self'. With 'self-harm', people attempt to 'control' a potentially
'uncontrollable' emotional pain via application of an apparently
'controllable' sensory pain (blocking the potential emotional pain from
using the same pain 'screen'). Euthenasia and suicide are extensions of
that.

'Thoughts' can be easily suppressed by rapt attention on sensory 'sounds'.
(See under - the Buddha in the 'scary place' prior to his awakening). Or by
rapt attention on sensory 'pictures' if they are of a pictorial type. Or
both. There are all manner of suchlike 'correspondences' pointing to the
sense of according the mind a much greater 'weight' in the mix, rather than
accepting the Buddha's easily 'clean-up-able' mind and his supra-mental
'nibbana'. But, looking at it my way, all the potential 'virtues' and
'vices' and 'problems' and 'solutions' would look very different.

Jonathan



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