Re: I guess this is where I end up............

Advaita Bob wrote:

brian mitchell wrote:

Advaita Bob wrote:

want2believe wrote:

I would be interested if you could explain this one more.. ie: how does
it fit with why bad things happen to good people, etc.

Because they *happen*.

Etymology: Middle English, from hap
1 : to occur by chance -- often used with it <it so happens I'm going
your way>

This loads the argument somewhat by insisting on chance rather than
agency, causation, intention, etc. If you dump those in a wholesale way
you're left with a mechanical determinism, which probably won't satisfy
want2believe's thirst for justice. The same applies to the
excrement-flinging monkey.

There are different ways to satisfy thirst for justice. One is to feed
one's thirst (so to speak) and the other would be to let it drop, to let
go of the idea of justice. Nothing is right and fair in life, not
because of life but because of our expectations of it.

There's a dubious reductionism in saying that all the qualities and
ideals of mind are nothing but erroneous projection. Human culture is
based on the sense that we have capabilities and aspirations beyond the
instinctive necessities of nature. Notions of justice and fairness seem
to be so basic to our minds that children latch onto them very early.
Expecting the whole universe to be organised on the principle of justice
may be a magical displacement for something in our own mind, but that
doesn't mean justice is a worthless concept that should be thrown away,
surely?

I also find that this issue in general suffers from a conflation between
natural and human events, and your monkey analogy does this. Natural
disasters are truly accidental, without motive or intent, but the great
proportion of "bad" things that happen to people can be traced back to
other people, which complicates things. And even the effects of natural
disasters are often exacerbated by human corruption, indifference, etc.
We don't live in a random world, but in a human one.

I don't like having excrement-flinging monkeys around, but they are
around and I can't change that...

If these monkeys have minds, which they share with you, or come from
minds, perhaps you can. Then there's the question of whether one is
oneself an excrement-flinging monkey to any degree.

Is there a reason for excrement-flinging
monkeys to be around and does their presence and my being hit have
anything to do with me being a good or a bad boy? Perhaps there is a
good reason, but excrement-flinging monkeys are there as well. That
reason and the excrement-flinging monkeys make two.

To be fair, Buddhism has a list with things that are connected to karma
and others that aren't, but I am not into List Buddhism.

Another possibility to view this "problem" is to think about what
constitutes good things, bad things, good people and bad people and
whether anything would *happen* (whether any apparent "interaction" or
"exchange" would take place) at all weren't it for these qualifiers.

Can you apply this formula to a Darforian refugee being raped by an Arab
militiaman when she leaves the camp to get water and firewood? Does it
ever actually *work*?

I can't apply this formula, because it isn't mine. I don't find thinking
about good and bad people helpful at all. All it does is to give me an
instantaneous exposure, on which I can apply one of my moral blueprints
to see who is good and bad. But people are not instantaneous exposures.
For clarity's sake if needed, for me rape is a bad action.

Not needed. I just looked for the most extreme current instance I could
think of to see whether the idea of removing the qualifying judgements
about an action could make the action not be an action. I sometimes
think that philosophical Buddhism loses all touch with human reality.

I experience dissatisfaction with all my objections to what's put
forward on this subject, which should (and does) tell me something. But
I experience equal dissatisfaction at everything that's put forward. At
the moment it seems to me that you (one) can't drop concepts of good and
evil, justice, righteousness and calumny, etc, until something else
which answers for all those things and more has grown in their stead and
they just fall away. To try to do so beforehand, to get somewhere,
strikes me as false. So in the meantime I think it's quite 'proper' to
look for principles of action and understanding and live by them when
you find them --if one even can. Do you not think we sometimes try to
"drop" things because we have failed to measure up to them?


brian mitchell
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: I guess this is where I end up............
    ... one's thirst and the other would be to let it drop, to let go of the idea of justice. ... Nothing is right and fair in life, not because of life but because of our expectations of it. ... ideals of mind are nothing but erroneous projection. ... oneself an excrement-flinging monkey to any degree. ...
    (talk.religion.buddhism)
  • Re: Barack Obama Disrespects Justice Thomas
    ... and justice must also be considered? ... word illustrates this very poorly. ... made up their minds before oral arguements. ...
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