Re: I guess this is where I end up............

brian mitchell wrote:

Advaita Bob wrote:

want2believe wrote:

I would be interested if you could explain this one more.. ie: how does
it fit with why bad things happen to good people, etc.

Because they *happen*.

Etymology: Middle English, from hap
1 : to occur by chance -- often used with it <it so happens I'm going your way>

This loads the argument somewhat by insisting on chance rather than
agency, causation, intention, etc. If you dump those in a wholesale way
you're left with a mechanical determinism, which probably won't satisfy
want2believe's thirst for justice. The same applies to the
excrement-flinging monkey.

There are different ways to satisfy thirst for justice. One is to feed one's thirst (so to speak) and the other would be to let it drop, to let go of the idea of justice. Nothing is right and fair in life, not because of life but because of our expectations of it.

I don't like having excrement-flinging monkeys around, but they are around and I can't change that. Is there a reason for excrement-flinging monkeys to be around and does their presence and my being hit have anything to do with me being a good or a bad boy? Perhaps there is a good reason, but excrement-flinging monkeys are there as well. That reason and the excrement-flinging monkeys make two.

To be fair, Buddhism has a list with things that are connected to karma and others that aren't, but I am not into List Buddhism.

Another possibility to view this "problem" is to think about what constitutes good things, bad things, good people and bad people and whether anything would *happen* (whether any apparent "interaction" or "exchange" would take place) at all weren't it for these qualifiers.

Can you apply this formula to a Darforian refugee being raped by an Arab
militiaman when she leaves the camp to get water and firewood? Does it
ever actually *work*?

I can't apply this formula, because it isn't mine. I don't find thinking about good and bad people helpful at all. All it does is to give me an instantaneous exposure, on which I can apply one of my moral blueprints to see who is good and bad. But people are not instantaneous exposures. For clarity's sake if needed, for me rape is a bad action.

See also our Advaitan fellow-seeker Vivekananda:
"Q. But still one has to admit that God is also in the sin!
Swamiji: You see, there are, in reality, no such different things as
good and evil. They are mere conventional terms. The same thing we call
bad, and again another time we call good, according to the way we make
use of it. Take for example this lamplight ; because of its burning, we
are able to see and do various works of utility ; this is one mode of
using the light. Again, if you put your fingers in it, they will be
burnt ; that is another mode of using the same light. So we should know
that a thing becomes good or bad according to the way we use it.
Similarly with virtue and vice. Broadly speaking, the proper use of any
of the faculties of our mind and body is termed virtue, and its improper
application or waste is called vice." - Vivekananda-

Somehow this smoothing of the moral coverlet doesn't convince me. It's
too utilitarian, and anyway you still end up with a value binary which
remains a vehicle for choice and judgement. You can take the conceptual
heat out of the terms by swapping 'proper' and 'improper' for 'good' and
'evil' but the new terms still have to be defined and agreed. What do
they mean? And is your 'proper' my 'improper'? And what of "rewards"? If
I exercise my faculties properly, is there some cumulative reinforcing
consequence of this, or might I just as well do the other?

Yes, it is a very simple first approach to seeing through the concepts of good and evil. But unfortunately many people are not even capable of that. I thought it was a proper answer to a question like "Why do bad things happen to good people"? Compare with the question "Why do they hate us" after 9/11.
.

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