Re: Reincarnation Inquiry


"Advaita Bob" <advaita.bob@xxxxxxxxx> wrote
Mayura wrote:

Thanks (although I still can't locate a meaning for the word 'muni').

I knew it as "the silent one" or "the silent sage", but the word Mauna
also seems to mean "blissful calmness, joyous recollection, tranquil
quietude, and peaceful stillness". Elsewhere it is explained Muni:
"Silent one" (one observing the vow of silence (mauna); sage;
ascetic.

Thanks.

And with the whole right speech approach, simply talking, chatting for
the pleasure of it seems to be proscribed.

Yes. (Maybe the Buddha just didn't want the people who knew him to start
comparing notes.)

Frawley was the first reference I found on this theory of non-invasion.
I have absolutely no idea what happened and since I don't, I added
another opinion on the same subject, for what it is worth. :-) Sorry...

Not at all. Sorry to be so obsessively Marple-ish on the subject.

:-) Although I am not sure the soma snorting isn't originally an
element of the pre-Aryan Shiva cult...

...A lot of
scholars seem to have identified it as the psychosis-inducing fungus
(like
ergot... I hope you're detecting a pattern here ;)

Keep reminding me of it and I will.

If the relevant scholars are right, then all of the schools and variants of
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, 'Hinduism' and Buddhism base themselves on a
previous world-view derived from use of psychotomimetics, minimally, ergot
and fly agaric. Use of this was the main original religious 'method' and one
that was reliable enough to persuade whole societies.

E.g. "...capable of producing dramatic and often profound changes in
perception. Colours are enhanced, spirits may appear, the sacramental plant
appears god-like... and perhaps a cosmic bridge [Norse mythical Bifrost,
Antakarana, Hendrix's Rainbow Bridge] or smoke tunnel appears... allowing
him to ascend to the heavens... doorway to a realm that is awesome and
wondrous... remove the barriers between humankind and the realm of gods and
spirits, and from them one receives wisdom and learning. The gods 'know';
the sacred plant 'speaks'... Amanita Muscaria... Aryans of Vedic India...
datura, marijuana... Mexico... peyote, psilocybe mushrooms, morning glory...
South America... Banisteriopsis vine... San Pedro cactus... native
tobacco... brugmansis... yopo... virola... Peyote... known to the Toltecs
1900 years before Europeans... San Pedro cactus... 3000 years before them...
Mayan 'mushroom stones'... Aztec... 'morning glory'..." Shamanism - Neville
Drury.

Fly Agaric (Amanita
Muscaria) mushroom (from the descriptions in the Vedas e.g. by day it is
'fire' coloured and by night, silvery with knobs on the surface).

Ah, the one that is inhabited by dwarfs and other legendary creatures?

Yes (and Noddy, Lewis Carroll and Jefferson Airplane).

I couldn't find a map for its distributution but apparently its habitat
is
in woodland under birch and pine. I found maps for every kind of birch
and
pine and the two most likely candidates are the Silver Birch and the
Scots
Pine which seem to occupy pretty much the same territory. It stretches
from
Europe to Siberia, the lower limit being about 42 degrees north (about
halfway up the Caspian Sea) and its upper limit about 68 degrees north.
It
is known to have been used by e.g. the Norse 'berserkers' (and Noddy and
Big
Ears) and various Siberian tribes at opposite ends of this band. It
would
make sense for them to have used this northern item on their way into
India
from the north and then lost the use of it. Whereas in Frawley's model,
where the Aryans spread out from India, some would have to have nipped
north
and then nipped back.

I can see the influence of Miss Marple Phillips here. Serious detective
work based on arguments such as the habitat of Fly Agarics. :-)
http://peyote.com/jonstef/flyagaric.htm

:) I'll have a look soon.

Yes and if the general tendency is to civilise, then something needs
to
be done to the Shiva/Dionysos cult and you end up eating a bit of
bread
and wine, instead of somebody's flesh and blood, shouting three times
Hurray (to symbolise the three transgressions or somesuch) instead of
having an orgy etc.

Yes. Previous to all of this moderation, if Shiva had a preferred
intoxicant, my best bet would be wine. I haven't been able to find where
precisely wine-production first started apart from its being in the
'Middle
East' at 8000-6000BC (with beer following at 6000-5000BC). I haven't
been
able to follow this up yet but Aser (Osiris) - also from King Enmer -
was
also God of Viticulture and officials were buried with enough wine to
see
them through the next life or somesuch. And Dionysus/Bacchus(?) is
connected
with wine. And it seemed to have a significance disproportionate to the
significance we generally give it (e.g. Gen.14.18, "And Melchizedek king
of
Salem brought forth bread and wine..." and throughout the rest of the
Bible).

Yes. It happens to be my preferred intoxicant too. So I am quite
pleased with that idea.

:) All I need now is a map of where wine started and how it spread from
there. When I was on here last, I got talking to a bunch of crossposting
'gnostics' (a type of frying pan) and it seemed to me that they shared the
same general 'big picture' as the Buddhists, Yogis, Samkhyans, Sufis etc.
(to which I've added the Orphic and Pythagorean lot and possibly the
Kabbalists). Since most or all of these used meditation and this 'big
picture' seems to have taken its 'shape' from meditation, I'm still
wondering if systematic meditation goes all of the way back to Sumeria via
an oral tradition that seems to 'disappear'.

Yes, but even then you will find some strange remnants (possession
elements, called the Holy Spirit, grace or whatever). Aren't Quakers
supposed to quake and shake or something?

Near enough. Apparently it was the Shakers. Apparently the Quaker thing
was
from some early Quaker telling a judge that he should quake before the
lord.

For fear? Is that all? I was expecting some mystic fits and
convulsions.

I think the judge was supposed to quake with fear but probably didn't
bother. The shakers had "ecstatic shakings". But my encylopedia adds,
anticlimactically, "mainly owing to their doctrine of celibacy, their
members... eventually shrank" :)

(The Buddha is above all that. He just causes quakes :)

You can't forgive him for that can you?

Well, I see it in a more dispassionate, pragmatic, utilitarian way than that
(i.e. something to swat the "Buddhism is so scientific" people with if they
start getting too 'uppity' :).

I will keep an eye open.

I had another few goes trying to copy it into new posts, old posts, on the
end of successful posts etc. It's as if it's the content itself that won't
fly (so I'll just work odds and sods in here and there).

Like the fact that I'm trying to draw my own bigger better Buddha-style
'map' (subordinating everything else I come across) based on sequential
boredom with the three things one can want and their nine variants. I.e.
physical stuff, mental stuff and experience. 1) stuff (the kind of detritis
kids collect - shells, stones, badges, stamps etc.) 2) stuff-related mental
stuff (e.g. Bumper Boys Book of my stamps, coins etc.) 3) stuff-related
experience (e.g. birdwatching or train-spotting). 4) mental stuff about
physical stuff (e.g. the sciences). 5) mental stuff about mental stuff (e.g.
philosophy). 6) mental stuff about experience (e.g. psychology). 7)
experience related to the sensory (e.g. sensory hedonism). 8) experience
related to the mental (e.g. 'meta-philosophy') 9) Unknown... maybe
'objectless experience'.

Jonathan


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