Re: Buji Zen


stumper wrote:
> Awaken21 wrote:
> > stumper wrote:
> >
> >>Awaken21 wrote:
> >>
> >>>stumper wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Awaken21 wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>stumper wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Awaken21 wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>stumper wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Awaken21 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>stumper wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Awaken21 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>dkotschess@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Paul wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>The intellect typically gets it wrong.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Only "typically"?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>WAKE UP!!!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>No absolutes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>After a while of practice the intellect gets it right. It's before
> >>>>>>>>>>>practice and in the early stages, that the intellect is less reliable.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>What does your intellect say about this?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>"OH SARIPUTRA, FORM DOES NOT DIFFER FROM THE VOID, AND
> >>>>>>>>>>THE VOID DOES NOT DIFFER FROM FORM. FORM IS VOID AND
> >>>>>>>>>>VOID IS FORM; THE SAME IS TRUE FOR FEELINGS, PERCEPTIONS,
> >>>>>>>>>>VOLITIONS AND CONSCIOUSNESS."
> >>>>>>>>>>http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartv05.htm
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Close enough as words go.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Close enough to what?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Close enough to the experience to be helpful for another person who has
> >>>>>>>had the experience, or the sincere person who is perhaps close but
> >>>>>>>still working on it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Is that your intellect talking?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>That's what I think, yes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Care to tell me how
> >>>>>>does your intellect reason in paradoxes?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>For actual paradoxes I usually inspect the details closer, most of the
> >>>>>time the issue is resolved there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On the other hand you haven't yet presented me with a paradox. The
> >>>>>description in the Heart Sutra refers to the state of being in
> >>>>>correctly focused practice. My intellect doesn't view that as something
> >>>>>that requires reasoning. Instead it views the passage as reasonably
> >>>>>good description of a state of being my own intellect also finds
> >>>>>impossible to completely accurately describe using words.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>You mean you don't see the paradoxes?
> >>>>
> >>>>If the Heart Sutra does not require reasoning,
> >>>>what does it require?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Practice and experience.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>Pondering about the paradoxes
> >>sure looks like practice to me.
> >
> >
> > Yes, so you've said. From my point of view your spinning your tires, I
> > see no satisfactory end for you in the method your using. You can do
> > what you are doing to the grave and not develop an iota of peace of
> > mind, or compassion or self discipline, or any of the other qualities
> > that lead to the end of suffering. Which is not say you personally
> > don't have these qualities, just that the method of practice you are
> > using is providing minimal help, if any at all
> >
> >
> >>Can you describe the experience
> >>without using paradoxes?
> >
> >
> >
> > Sure, but if you haven't had the experience, you're more likely to see
> > paradoxes where there are none. Look at the heart sutra situation we
> > just discussed. I didn't see a paradox there, so if I had been the one
> > to say that passage (yea right, I know the shoes are too big, its just
> > a handy for instance) you might insist I'm presenting a paradox, when I
> > would argue I'm presenting as accurate a description of the experience
> > as I could muster. On the other hand the Buddha's instructions to
> > Bahiya, are a beautiful description of practice, and I don't see any
> > serious intellectual paradoxes there. There's a few unconstructive
> > things an intellect could imply or reason out, if it reads that passage
> > without actual exposure, but nothing I'd consider a straight paradox.
> >
> > It seems to me more important would be can you read my descriptions, or
> > anyone's without seeing a paradox, or making implications or judgements
> > that have no corresponding reality? I personally believe based on a
> > mountain of anecdotal evidence and a few things the Buddha and later
> > Zen Masters discussed, that no you can't, until you have some kind of
> > familiarity with it through practice.
> >
> > I've never actually seen someone who has no experience with practice
> > say "Hey, that sounds about right, I think I'll give it a try and see
> > how it turns out." or even "Well it's kind of wierd but I'll give it
> > try and see if I can figure out what they are talking about."
> >
> > Instead most people respond with issues concerning paradoxes, and
> > non-existent implications based on descriptions, and conculsions that
> > have no corresponding reality within the actual practice and
> > experience. In short, they think of all kinds of reasons why it doesn't
> > work, or may be impossible, instead of understanding that anyone can do
> > it and it's actually quite simple and straighforward. They think
> > themselves into not practicing, or substitute intellect based
> > conclusions, for experience. Spinning their wheels in the endless
> > karmic mud.
> >
>
>
> You believe in something.
> I don't.
>
> You act as if you know.
> I act as if I don't know.
>
> BTW,
> what is Zen?

Find out for yourself.

>
> --
> ~Stumper

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Buji Zen
    ... >> stumper wrote: ... >>>Pondering about the paradoxes ... >>>sure looks like practice to me. ... > I act as if I don't know. ...
    (talk.religion.buddhism)
  • Re: Buji Zen in illuminati aspic
    ... After a while of practice the intellect gets it right. ... THE VOID DOES NOT DIFFER FROM FORM. ... does your intellect reason in paradoxes? ...
    (talk.religion.buddhism)
  • Re: Buji Zen in illuminati aspic
    ... After a while of practice the intellect gets it right. ... THE VOID DOES NOT DIFFER FROM FORM. ... does your intellect reason in paradoxes? ...
    (talk.religion.buddhism)
  • Re: Buji Zen
    ... >> stumper wrote: ... > does your intellect reason in paradoxes? ... For actual paradoxes I usually inspect the details closer, ...
    (talk.religion.buddhism)
  • Re: Buji Zen
    ... After a while of practice the intellect gets it right. ... For actual paradoxes I usually inspect the details closer, ... There's a few unconstructive things an intellect could imply or reason out, if it reads that passage without actual exposure, but nothing I'd consider a straight paradox. ...
    (talk.religion.buddhism)